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Pentosan Peeps! PLEASE ADVISE!

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  • #21
    There has been research though. Somebody has to pay for research and for the most part it's gonna be the drug company since there isn't too much other monies floating around.

    Comment


    • #22
      Agreed. But don't mix research and marketing in this slimy fashion just to sell more product for indications that are not demonstrated, like using it in perfectly sound, healthy young animals. (as the discussion suggests) There ARE downsides to Pentosan, like every other drug, including a risk of bleeding which is small but measurable. These types of publications lend credibility where none is deserved and (IMO) foster a too-casual attitude to the use of these drugs. Not to pick on the OP, but this is typical: read about it on COTH, insist on trying it, get your vet to prescribe it with no clue how to use it by either party and come and ask perfect strangers who are not vets how it's given and in what dosage. It's a little scary, IMO.
      Click here before you buy.

      Comment


      • #23
        Deltawave is right - that link is not research, but I found it interesting.

        Dr. McIlwraith has done research on Pentosan. Just Google McIlwraith & Pentosan.
        Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

        Comment


        • #24
          No doubt he is on their payroll, too. No disclosure of conflict of interest, though. In the human world, this would be unethical to the point of ruining one's reputation.
          Click here before you buy.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by deltawave View Post
            No doubt he is on their payroll, too. No disclosure of conflict of interest, though. In the human world, this would be unethical to the point of ruining one's reputation.
            That is a very risky comment you just made regarding Dr McIlwraith who is well respected around the world.

            Comment


            • #26
              I completely agree that you shouldn't use a drug without having a good knowledge of its side effects or just because somebody on a forum used it. Or using it without having somebody around that knows how to use it.

              And yes there will always be marketing but that doesn't mean a drug isn't useful. It's better than using Adequan off label as an IM injection for prophylactic indications when there's no proof that using it in that manner is helpful.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                FWIW...I went back and re-read my OP, and truthfully, I admit I sound like a bit of an idiot, and can certainly understand why I might have raised some red flags with some people. No, i have absolutely NO experience with using this drug...but I don't feel I will harm my horse in any way, giving this drug for a few months on a trial period. From all the research i've done on pentosan, i had felt very confident with going ahead with it on my own, but thought I would check in here to make sure "I had it just right." Sorry I upset anyone by this, but rest assured, I have been caring for horses for a very long time, and I haven't hurt or killed one yet, and I plan to keep it that way!

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                  No doubt he is on their payroll, too. No disclosure of conflict of interest, though. In the human world, this would be unethical to the point of ruining one's reputation.
                  Dr. McIlwraith heads the Orthopaedic Research Center at Colorado State University- http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/acade...s/default.aspx

                  I'd assume that anyone with questions could ask him.
                  Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    We have one gelding who gets mild colic symptoms every time he gets a dose plus a bit of the runs. He is ulcer prone, so next time we will give omeprazole or ranitidine prior to the pentosan, but for as well as it works for his arthritic stifle I still feel it is worth it.
                    Last edited by candico; Mar. 16, 2013, 12:57 AM. Reason: Spelling

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Pentosan is wonderful stuff -and a very good alternative to Adaquan ...many will agree that it works better! The average dose is 6 mls IM once/week for 4weeks, then monthly there after ....my vet told me if you have a bigger/larger horse you can give 7 mls ...just the same as if your horse were smaller-then 5mls would be appropriate!

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        My issue is not with the vet, but with the company, FWIW. I do find the lack of disclosure of potential conflict of interest disturbing, but I'm assuming that it is not yet routine in the veterinary industry. Still think it's a nice product.
                        Click here before you buy.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Still not sure where you've seen that he is on their payroll. Or have evidence of the company being unethical.
                          Here is a nice article with good citations at the bottom that include some dosing and side effect info.

                          veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Veterinary+Equine/Research-points-to-pentosan-polysulfate-to-treat-e/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/775273

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            I was speculating, based on the icky "round table" article posted earlier, which was produced by the company that makes the product. Generally speaking, these are a paid gig for the participants. If that were a human product advertisement, however, there would be full disclosure of the participants' relationship(s) with the company(ies) in question, front and center, if any existed.

                            IMO it is borderline unethical (not egregiously so, we're not talking Torquemada here, people) to put out these "publications" without full disclosure of who is being paid by whom. That's how it's done in my world, and that world is a much better place for it, IMO.
                            Click here before you buy.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                              I was speculating, based on the icky "round table" article posted earlier, which was produced by the company that makes the product. Generally speaking, these are a paid gig for the participants. If that were a human product advertisement, however, there would be full disclosure of the participants' relationship(s) with the company(ies) in question, front and center, if any existed.

                              IMO it is borderline unethical (not egregiously so, we're not talking Torquemada here, people) to put out these "publications" without full disclosure of who is being paid by whom. That's how it's done in my world, and that world is a much better place for it, IMO.
                              I'm sure Dr. McIlwraith will love hearing that you are accusing him of being unethical on a public forum board. Especially when there are so many Colorado people on this board that know him. What a statement as you know nothing about the situation.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                I was speculating, based on the icky "round table" article posted earlier, which was produced by the company that makes the product. Generally speaking, these are a paid gig for the participants. If that were a human product advertisement, however, there would be full disclosure of the participants' relationship(s) with the company(ies) in question, front and center, if any existed.

                                IMO it is borderline unethical (not egregiously so, we're not talking Torquemada here, people) to put out these "publications" without full disclosure of who is being paid by whom. That's how it's done in my world, and that world is a much better place for it, IMO.
                                My impression was that there was a round table at a professional conference, which the drug maker sponsored, then it looks like the drug maker then slicked up the transcript into a marketing piece.

                                OP - I DO remember reading about some adverse reactions, some serious, so potential users need to be aware & be prepared for that possibility - Deltawave might know more on that from her research before using, but this is what I found -
                                http://cartrophen.com/content/CEF_te...l_brochure.pdf
                                Last edited by ldaziens; Mar. 17, 2013, 12:29 AM. Reason: clarify
                                Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                                  I'm sure Dr. McIlwraith will love hearing that you are accusing him of being unethical on a public forum board. Especially when there are so many Colorado people on this board that know him. What a statement as you know nothing about the situation.
                                  Wait, Davistina67, I figured you would want Dr. McIlwraith arrested for engaging in illegal activities w/ Pentosan. (Sorry, but your rant accusing actual DVMs of engaging in illegal activity was fresh in my mind from searching threads on Pentosan while doing my own research.)

                                  Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                                  Hard telling what the vets particular reason is but the reason most won't write a script for Pentosan is that it is very illegal for a vet to write that script.
                                  from
                                  http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...ith-Pentaussie
                                  Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by ldaziens View Post
                                    Wait, Davistina67, I figured you would want Dr. McIlwraith arrested for engaging in illegal activities w/ Pentosan. (Sorry, but your rant accusing actual DVMs of engaging in illegal activity was fresh in my mind from searching threads on Pentosan while doing my own research.)


                                    from
                                    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...ith-Pentaussie
                                    Wait, you need to think before you open your mouth. Who said he was engaging in illegal activities? He is doing research, there is a big difference. He is one of the top researchers in the US.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      The roundtable featured in this thread sounds totally scripted and not much like a real discussion at all. I sincerely doubt that any of the participants were not being well compensated by the company that makes Pentosan.

                                      Compensation comes in many forms; a stipend, regular payroll and grants to fund research.

                                      I use Pentosan and really like the results I get with it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        "Discussion" implies varying views, point and counterpoint, and in the case of drugs at least, touching on the risks as well as the benefits. None of that is present in the "discussion" cited. It was actually kind of shocking to read how many of these vets are using (with no evidence) the drug on yearlings and horses with no specific problems.

                                        I guess it's what can happen when there's no system of checks and balances nor a requirement for proven efficacy. The human world of drug regulation is LOADED with issues, but I'm trying to imagine bringing a product to market for humans that must be given via injection, has a bleeeding risk, costs $50+ per dose and whose makers were suggesting that every last person out there would benefit from taking it for their entire life. It would be laughed out of the first step of the approval process.

                                        I continue to use the product (the compounded kind) and will do so conditionally for the one horse of mine with documented OA who appears to benefit. I have all the respect in the world for McIlwraith's writings, which are numerous. But this citation does not shed a favorable light on the company that makes Pentosan(tm).
                                        Click here before you buy.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          According to my horse's weight on scale at CSU he should be getting 7.6 mL dose, which I am rounding up to 8 mL to account for the muscle he is putting on. This gives me six doses per 50 ml bottle.

                                          I've been giving him Pentosan since last summer with limited improvement, but since having his back and SI injected a month ago (after a bone scan) and starting a new loading dose of Pentosan one week later, I am now seeing VERY positive results.

                                          One could speculate that it was the back and SI injections that really made the difference, but I didn't see much improvement in the first two weeks. His hocks and fetlock had also lit up on the bone scan, but it was too soon to inject the hocks again since they had just been done 8 weeks prior (with no improvement).

                                          In this case there were several different problems all contributing to overall hind end soreness, and I think the combination of treatments has finally got him feeling good again. All of which is to say that if you don't see improvement with Pentosan, don't necessarily rule it out as a helpful adjunct in treating a "train wreck" horse like mine.

                                          Also be sure to get an accurate weight on your horse to calculate dosage for this and other medicines.

                                          Comment

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