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EVIDENCE for oral joint supp's?

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  • #21
    newhorsemommy, how do you find MSM manufactured in the US? I've found that labeling lacking.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
      In the meantime, on days he works I'll give him a dose of MSM.

      now that's definitely a waste of money!

      Comment


      • #23
        There were some studies done at Colorado State that compared things like Adequan, Legend, Pentosan, Glucosamine (oral and injectable I think), and ASU. Some other oral supplements might have been evaluated... I can't remember.

        Arthritis was induced in the test subjects, if memory serves. Then the various substances were administered/injected and then the horse was evaluated.

        I think the conclusion was that of all the substances evaluated, Pentosan was far and away the best. I think Legend and Adequan were good but not as good as Pentosan, and of the orals ASU did in fact have a positive effect on osteoarthritis.

        The studies are on the net somewhere, you could probably do a search. The vet did present his findings at a conference or two.... you know I just can't remember the details. I used to have all that stuff saved on my computer but that one died and I lost a lot of stuff.

        If you are interested in the ASU I am aware of two products that contain the substance. Cosequin ASU and Platinum Performance something or other. Both are very expensive. I evaluated both - Platinum Performance is the superior product in terms of price per dose and that you get other things like MSM, vitamins and minerals, etc. You can obtain Pentosan from Wedgewood Pharmacy with a prescription from your vet.

        I think your biggest bang for the buck is going to be Pentosan. A second would be a product with ASU in it. I wouldn't waste money on the other stuff out there. With a decent management program; nutrition, turnout, good training, etc.... you might have excellent results. But try and find the information that came out of Colorado State as that might really help you make a decision.
        Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
        Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
        -Rudyard Kipling

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by Simkie View Post
          newhorsemommy, how do you find MSM manufactured in the US? I've found that labeling lacking.
          Horsetech OptiMSM

          http://horsetech.com/msm.html

          Comment


          • #25
            Stacey at BTB shared research she was doing when making decisions back in 2010, and I still refer back to those blogs sometimes. One of them:

            http://www.behindthebitblog.com/2010...-research.html


            I use a supplement with Type II collagen in it from reading the various postings she had. I believe somewhere she linked to a study which wasn't on horses, but showed preventative qualities (on mice, perhaps?), but right now can't find that study. I don't remember seeing anything with good science which showed anything worked as a preventative for horses.
            Originally posted by Silverbridge
            If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by netg View Post
              Stacey at BTB shared research she was doing when making decisions back in 2010, and I still refer back to those blogs sometimes. One of them:

              http://www.behindthebitblog.com/2010...-research.html


              I use a supplement with Type II collagen in it from reading the various postings she had. I believe somewhere she linked to a study which wasn't on horses, but showed preventative qualities (on mice, perhaps?), but right now can't find that study. I don't remember seeing anything with good science which showed anything worked as a preventative for horses.
              Another terrible study with no blinding, therefore completely open to the corruption of observer bias. Never mind the fact that collagen is digested just like a ham sandwich and broken down into peptides and amino acids which then bear no further resemblance to the original substance.

              If the other study was a "6" I'd give this one a "2".
              Click here before you buy.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                Originally posted by netg View Post
                Stacey at BTB shared research she was doing when making decisions back in 2010, and I still refer back to those blogs sometimes. One of them:

                http://www.behindthebitblog.com/2010...-research.html


                I use a supplement with Type II collagen in it from reading the various postings she had. I believe somewhere she linked to a study which wasn't on horses, but showed preventative qualities (on mice, perhaps?), but right now can't find that study. I don't remember seeing anything with good science which showed anything worked as a preventative for horses.
                That is pretty much my conclusion reading everything I can find online. I got "The Final Word" on my guy last night by calling up the lady who raised him, and whose family has been breeding Walkers for generations. She said they ALL move that way, especially when young, and goofy as they may look to owners (and vets!) used to looking at hunters, it doesn't mean an thing as to future soundness.

                So, given that I'm not much into faith-based chemistry, we won't be fertilizing the pastures with Cosequin here this time. . .

                Years ago I DID feed several brands to my old eventer, and when I took him off it noticed squat; as many have said, it may be highly dependent on the individual horse and what his problem is, but
                I suspect no real research is being done "for a reason."

                Comment


                • #28
                  The REASON no research is done is because a large number of people DO NOT CARE. They will buy the product anyway, and "swear by it", even, to rationalize (subconsciously) their decision. If the product sells and profits are good, why on earth would anyone "waste" money on research?
                  Click here before you buy.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by JSwan View Post
                    There were some studies done at Colorado State that compared things like Adequan, Legend, Pentosan, Glucosamine (oral and injectable I think), and ASU. Some other oral supplements might have been evaluated... I can't remember.

                    Arthritis was induced in the test subjects, if memory serves. Then the various substances were administered/injected and then the horse was evaluated.

                    I think the conclusion was that of all the substances evaluated, Pentosan was far and away the best. I think Legend and Adequan were good but not as good as Pentosan, and of the orals ASU did in fact have a positive effect on osteoarthritis.

                    The studies are on the net somewhere, you could probably do a search. The vet did present his findings at a conference or two.... you know I just can't remember the details. I used to have all that stuff saved on my computer but that one died and I lost a lot of stuff.

                    If you are interested in the ASU I am aware of two products that contain the substance. Cosequin ASU and Platinum Performance something or other. Both are very expensive. I evaluated both - Platinum Performance is the superior product in terms of price per dose and that you get other things like MSM, vitamins and minerals, etc. You can obtain Pentosan from Wedgewood Pharmacy with a prescription from your vet.

                    I think your biggest bang for the buck is going to be Pentosan. A second would be a product with ASU in it. I wouldn't waste money on the other stuff out there. With a decent management program; nutrition, turnout, good training, etc.... you might have excellent results. But try and find the information that came out of Colorado State as that might really help you make a decision.
                    Maybe this?

                    http://www.ker.com/library/proceedin...rt%20Horse.pdf

                    I have decided to start my 19 yo TWH mare on Pentosan for her creaky back end. I've only had her a few years - came to me as a rescue, but she competed in that freak show Big Lick as a young horse. I suspect that is a huge factor in her arthritis.

                    Some vets do use the Pentosan in young horses to proactively protect the joints -
                    http://ivs.sg/IVSwp/wp-content/uploa...s-portrait.pdf

                    My vet originally suggested oral supplements, because he said Adequan was so expensive. I definitely spent more on Cosequin ASU than I would have on Adequan, and Pentosan is apparently better and costs less. Go figure.
                    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                      The REASON no research is done is because a large number of people DO NOT CARE. They will buy the product anyway, and "swear by it", even, to rationalize (subconsciously) their decision. If the product sells and profits are good, why on earth would anyone "waste" money on research?
                      Heh-heh! Yep--the same crew buy ThighMasters and AbBlasters and those supermarket mags that say "Lose 40 lbs. by Easter!" superimposed over huge, gooey desserts.

                      "Dr. Good's Magick Liniment," latter day . . .

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        those supermarket mags that say "Lose 40 lbs. by Easter!" superimposed over huge, gooey desserts . . .
                        These are, to me, like waving a red cape in a bull's face. I chuck them in the trash or tear the covers off if they're sitting in my waiting room.
                        Click here before you buy.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I've had good success with plain glucosamine powder for some horses, and plain MSM as well. 10-15 grams a day for either. I had good luck with Corta-Flx until they watered down the formula. I have tried many others and not seen any results (improvement in lameness or joint effusion).
                          The science is really lacking because there's no reason to do it. The products can be sold freely at a huge profit. Whyyyy would they spend money on research? (I think a lot of equine research studies are poorly designed and controlled, anyway.)
                          There are some somewhat better studies looking at human osteoarthritis. Whether the response of humans is analogous to that of horses....who knows.
                          As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            The whole joint supplement deal is a real hit or miss kind of endeavour. I asked my vet about it for one of my horses and he told me to pick one and try it for two weeks. If I didn't see any improvement in that time, go pick a different one.

                            I started with straight MSM and my farrier noticed my horse was happier about standing with his legs up 3-4 weeks after starting MSM. About nine months later the manufacturer changed something about the manufacture of the joint supplement I was using and whatever they'd done made it ineffective in my horse. So I picked a new one, and four days later noticed an improvement in my horse. It was minute, a tiny change, and I was not entirely convinced it wasn't my imagination, but my horse just kept getting better and better over the next weeks.

                            Not all supplements will work for all horses. Not all joint issues can be improved with supplements. But sometimes we can find the right one for our specific horse.


                            The funniest part is that I explained the joint supplement thing to my manager at work and she told her husband. He experimented with different brands of glucosamine and discovered a different product than his chosen one that worked for him.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by CrowneDragon View Post
                              I had good luck with Corta-Flx until they watered down the formula.

                              Huh, when did that happen and how do you know? That is one that I have had some success with in the past before my old mare got too creaky.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Before switching to Pentosan, I used Recovery EQ and it made a remarkable difference in my 20something horse.

                                Eventually he wasn't crazy about the taste anymore.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by arabiansrock View Post
                                  Huh, when did that happen and how do you know? That is one that I have had some success with in the past before my old mare got too creaky.
                                  I want to say about 2 years ago? I have a pic of a "new" and an "old" bottle showing the differences in the guaranteed analyses. I contacted the manufacturer and they swore that the ingredients hadn't been changed. OK then.
                                  As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    I have used MSM and U-guard in the past. In both cases I noticed a big difference in the before the supplement and the after. When using MSM, taking the horse off of it for a month then starting up on glucosamine I noticed no difference between the effects MSM had on the horse and the effects that glucosamine had on the horse. MSM is much cheaper so after SmartPak stopped doing the glucosamine sale I just switched back to MSM.
                                    Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
                                    The Blog

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      A lot of the packaged, labelled and advertised products can be purchased from your feed store in plastic bags: Otter Co-Op here has them and they are waaaaay cheaper if you buy the producst separately to try.

                                      But, actually, i've tried most of 'em with not much success!
                                      Just know what they are and the dosages to use. A lot have a wide tolerance.
                                      Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by CrowneDragon View Post
                                        I want to say about 2 years ago? I have a pic of a "new" and an "old" bottle showing the differences in the guaranteed analyses. I contacted the manufacturer and they swore that the ingredients hadn't been changed. OK then.
                                        Yep, OK then!

                                        Several years ago at Rolex, I walked into the Cortaflex booth and tried to ask some questions about the research used to develop their product and its mechanisms of action. I was genuinely curious, as I was a grad student studying equine cartilage at the time. The sales rep walked me over to the company founder/president who happened to be in the booth.

                                        Not long after, I was literally chased out of the booth for asking such inappropriate questions. As I sheepishly retreated, the head of the company SHOUTED behind me something along the lines of "it doesn't matter how it works, it doesn't matter why it works, all that matters is that it DOES work - and we have too many customers to be wrong!"

                                        FWIW, I still research cartilage and joint biology. This means that I get to hang out with some pretty brilliant scientists...including internationally recognized experts in mammalian articular cartilage metabolism, repair, etc. Many of these individuals are of an age where they have started to experience symptoms of osteoarthritis themselves. I don't know a single one of them that takes glucosamine/chondroitin/msm themselves, or that recommends it to their friends, patients or colleagues. They all point to the lack of data on the bioavailability of oral supplements, as well as actual in vivo efficacy after oral supplementation. Their most commonly prescribed (and effective) treatments for humans and animals alike is shockingly…diet and exercise.
                                        *Absolut Equestrian*

                                        "The plural of anecdote is not fact...except in the horse industry"

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Not long after, I was literally chased out of the booth for asking such inappropriate questions. As I sheepishly retreated, the head of the company SHOUTED behind me something along the lines of "it doesn't matter how it works, it doesn't matter why it works, all that matters is that it DOES work - and we have too many customers to be wrong!"
                                          In another time you would have been burned at the stake, you heretic.
                                          Click here before you buy.

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