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Anyone have a horse on longterm Banamine?

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  • #21
    Injectible banamine administered orally needs to go sublingually to be absorbed. Adding something to it for palatability will interfere with that absorption.

    As for side effect, it depends on the horse (much like bute long term.) I have a mare that tolerates single doses of banamine fine, but more than one will cause her to exhibit symptoms of ulcers. I can't give her bute at all.

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    • Original Poster

      #22
      Okay, thx, that makes sense. He's so easy with syringes, this has got to work with the plain liquid, I tell his peabrain it's for his good even if it tastes ukhy, lol.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Simkie View Post
        Injectible banamine administered orally needs to go sublingually to be absorbed. Adding something to it for palatability will interfere with that absorption.

        As for side effect, it depends on the horse (much like bute long term.) I have a mare that tolerates single doses of banamine fine, but more than one will cause her to exhibit symptoms of ulcers. I can't give her bute at all.
        It will still get absorbed if the liquid is given orally and mixed with food. Just more slowly, via the normal enteric absorption route. The sole benefits of giving it sublingual or via the buccal route are faster onset of action and utility if the gut is not working, as an alternative to IV/IM. Mixing it with food to swallow is fine, just slower.
        Click here before you buy.

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        • Original Poster

          #24
          Well since he's getting it daily, there's no need for fast absorption, that's for sure.

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          • #25
            I know that studies show alfalfa to help buffer the stomach from ulcers. I have no idea how much it would take though.

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            • #26
              I have a mare that has been on some kind of NSAID for years (whatever works best at the particular time---bute, Banamine, Previcox, naproxen, etc). I had her on Banamine every day for about a year and never noted any overt issues, although I managed her on 5 mL (250 mg) per day or less. She weighs about 1200 lbs.
              Half of a tube is 750 mg flunixin per day and is 1.5 full doses (equivalent of 15 mL of injectable). I would not be comfortable giving that daily unless there was absolutely no alternative. I believe that exceeds the recommended dosage for acute problems.
              As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

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              • Original Poster

                #27
                Thx CrowneDragon. I don't know what else to give him, the alternative is euthanasia .

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                • #28
                  I don't know the background story for your guy, but if you've maxed-out any benefit you can get from shoeing, support wrapping, etc, and you need that much pain killer every day for decent quality of life, I would investigate if neurectomy or chemical "nerving" are an option.

                  To answer your original question, I don't know of a way to ameliorate the deleterious effects on the renal system, and I think anything you come across that claims to be a "kidney cleanser" is probably just a diuretic.
                  I grapple with this same issue with my mare.

                  Good luck with your boy!
                  As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

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                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Thx CD, I understand your thinking, but what good will nerving his suspensories do, it's systemic, it's a whole body disease, it affects the flexor tendons, patellar tendons of the stifle, the nuchal ligament in the neck, arteries and the sclera of the eyes. I'm starting to see issues in the front legs too. DSLD/EPSA has been associated with Ehlers Danlos disease in humans, in humans they have changes to their intestinal wall linings and get bouts of abdominal pain. This might explain my horse's frequent colics.
                    There is no cure, I will have to let go of him at some point, but whilst I don't want to do it too late and have him suffer badly, I will not let go off him too soon either. I nearly had the vet go ahead last week, I came very close, but seeing his playfullness today, makes me realize, thank God I haven't lost him yet. Of course had I euthanized him last week I wouldn't have know that today on his Banamine he would have been fooling around with his friend and his eyes all bright and keen again.
                    Believe me it's hard.
                    He's way more comfortable at present, yet the Banamine is not preventing heat in the fetlocks .
                    Shoeingwise we did all sort of concoctions for years but now even high doses of Dorm & Torb don't allow us to get under him anymore. I trim the best I can, no farrier has sufficient time to do him. I will not have him laid down for trimming however.
                    I am wrapping 24/7.

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                    • #30
                      Ah, that stinks. I assumed that most of his discomfort was distal limb. I have worked with a couple of Peruvian Pasos with DSLD. One of them ended up with bilateral neurectomies in his hind legs (I don't recall what nerves were cut) and this resulted in great relief for him, until things completely failed.
                      As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

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                      • #31
                        A good life, free of pain, is worth accepting some risks. I would keep doing what works. The devil you know and all that.
                        Click here before you buy.

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                        • #32
                          HOWEVER, this does NOT give one a "pass" on the GI side effects, which do not require direct exposure of the gastric mucosa to the drug.--Quote Deltawave

                          Thank you Deltawave for reiterating this point.

                          The effects of NASAIDS are systemic. Some horses an some people are going to have a problem no matter what and how you administer the one you are using.
                          So, use as little as possible for as short time as possible.
                          Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                          Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

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                          • #33
                            Feeding him alfalfa will help prevent ulcers, as will keeping hay/grass in front of him at all times. While long term NSAID use definitely increases the risk of ulcers and kidney issues (it decreases the production of COX-1, which has protective effects on the kidney and stomach lining) it does not guarantee that they will occur and keeping grass or hay in front of him will definitely help decrease your horse's risk of getting them. There are lots of horses that live on bute, banamine, or other NSAIDs for long periods of time and have no issues.
                            I'm sorry about your boy, I hope the Banamine continues to give him a good quality of life.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I had a pony with chronic laminitis that lived on a low dose of Banamine for several years. We used the injectable solution mixed with applesauce and syringed it orally. To help protect his stomach we used ranitidine twice daily. It worked great for him and routine bloodwork was always normal.
                              Originally posted by EquineImagined
                              My subconscious is a wretched insufferable beotch.

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                              • #35
                                In your circumstances, I wouldn't worry too much about the long term effects of omeprazole, either.

                                Do what you need to do to provide the right quality of life now. The quantity is regretably going to be relatively finite. But then it is for us all.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                  A good life, free of pain, is worth accepting some risks. I would keep doing what works. The devil you know and all that.
                                  I agree. At a certain point (and it sounds like you're there), all you can offer is pain relief until such point that it isn't sufficient for quality of life anymore or the side effects are overwhelming.
                                  Enjoy what you have in the mean time!
                                  Sorry you have to deal with this
                                  As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    The liver side effects of NSAIDs are less of a concern in horses than they are in the small animal kiddies -- but the renal side effects are a REAL concern. If possible, I would really recommend checking kidney values (really just a creatinine) regularly -- if it increases, your vet can give him a course of enteral (through a nasogastric tube) or IV fluids to try and diurese his kidneys. Another value to monitor is his protein level, as right dorsal colitis is another concern with these guys -- and a drop in protein (really albumin, a type of protein) can be one of the first signs.

                                    Of course, if you can't discontinue the Banamine, it may be better just not knowing. It's a sucky situation to be in. And Equioxx/Previcoxx (firocoxib) is NOT easier on the kidneys, even though it is more Cox2 selective than Banamine. It may be easier on the GI, however.

                                    And yes, you can give the injectable Banamine orally, as described by others.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Yes. Banamine 2x a day for just under a year. No problems with it. My old tb mare Callie would not let me use bute. I guess her experiences on the track for 3 yrs in her youth made her hate bute. So vet prescribed Banamine. I did give her neighlox also. And she was on other drugs during this time, including isoxsuprine and naproxen. All vet prescribed and monitored.

                                      (And Cloudy was on bute 2x a day for almost a year. No problems with that either.)

                                      of course other horses may react differently. So I always watched my 2 and listened to my vet. And followed his advice.
                                      In addition, I always fed my horses soaked grain before I gave them their meds. I just think that a stomach and gut with food in it already is not going to be harmed as badly as giving meds on an empty stomach. And I made sure my horses got/get lots of water in their grain.

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        Thanks for that Ben and Me, very informative.
                                        Yes on the one hand I do not want to know, I've had more than enough worries, on the other hand I absolutely will have some regular bloodwork done, good to know what to check for, did not know that.
                                        Any suggestion as to have often one should check those values?

                                        I had heard that about Firocoxib, but since it doesn't offer him any painrelief at all, stopped using that.

                                        Stupid question probably, but if kidneys start to fail, any outward signs? He is luckily a good drinker, and I can easily increase his water consumption by giving a bucket with this yummy Horsequencher daily, (don't like the extra sugars, however but I'm sort of beyond caring about that now).

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Wow cloudyandcallie, 2x a day is a lot. Would that have been a full dose (as in 0.5mg/kg, you know the standard banamine paste dose) twice a day?
                                          My vet had actually made the suggestion of going twice a day to make him really comfortable, but I just don't dare going that far.

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