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update post #112 Laminitis woes/vaccine reaction

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  • I forgot, is she able to eat Triple Crown Lite or their 30% supplement to help meet her nutritional needs? If so, neither one adds a lot of volume to the diet but does pack a lot of nutritional 'oomph'. I am so sorry that the long term prognosis is so poor, but also am jingling and praying that she will beat the odds.
    Jeanie
    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

    Comment


    • Oh how sad I'm so sorry you're having to deal with all these possibilities on top of the daily stresses Many, many jingles being sent your way
      ______________________________
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
        Very sad to hear it. In the "the devil you know vs. the devil you don't know" camp, since the original laminitis was not triggered by feed or obesity, does it still make sense (given the likeliest scenario) to withhold feeds that might be more palatable to her now? For the foal's sake, anyhow.
        The problem is not the type of feed she is offered, but the fact that it appears her tastes and physiology have changed. In the past, she never would have turned away what used to be her favourite flavor - beet pulp. She is now at extremely high risk of laminitis again and has suffered resurgence of laminitis at the introduction of low-ESC extruded feed. For her very life and the life of her fetus, it is imperative she stay on a safe diet. Another bout of laminitis will terminate her pregnancy and end her life - she just will not survive it. It is not worth even thinking about risking it. My goal is get her safely foaled out and survive past the upcoming fall! I'm just unsure how I will be able to pull that (miracle) out of the hat.

        All pregnant mares are in a metabolic state. This is normal as this is how nutrition is diverted to the fetus. Furthermore, a pregnant mare should never be on a high-sugar diet as this is the leading cause of OCD/DOD in foals.

        Last year, this mare would have snarked up 30 pounds of low-sugar hay and snuffed around for more. She used to be a living vacuum cleaner. She is transitioning to half-and-half low-sugar timothy to normal timothy, but she tends to eat for 15 or so minutes and go off to sleep. She SHOULD be eating 25+ pounds of hay per day, preferrably more. She is consuming realistically 12-15 pounds. Prior to now, she never would have turned any food down.
        Last edited by rodawn; Apr. 14, 2013, 12:46 AM.
        Practice! Patience! Persistence!
        http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
        https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses/

        Comment


        • Why not alfalfa? It has more protein, and is usually lower in sugar that Timothy? (just curious...) If you or your Vet have not already sought a consultation with Dr. Kellon, I really hope you will. If anyone can help you pull a miracle out of a hat, it would be she. Visit www.drkellon.com
          Jeanie
          RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

          Comment


          • has suffered resurgence of laminitis at the introduction of low-ESC extruded feed.
            That takes away that option, then. Very sorry for your struggles and your poor mare.

            Have they considered tube feedings?
            Click here before you buy.

            Comment


            • Sorry if I missed this, did you ever try the soaked alfalfa cubes? Is there a way to get them tested after soaking to check their NSC levels?

              Here's a link to Katy Watts' hay soaking study if you don't have it already: forage.http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/SoakReport2.pdf
              She gives values for both unsoaked and soaked

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rodawn View Post
                has suffered resurgence of laminitis at the introduction of low-ESC extruded feed.
                Some horses are sensitive to the fructose found in the WSC fraction. It is toxic to the liver, and drives a hepatic form of IR. Researchers tell me they find this form more often in the skinny IR horses. This type of horse needs both WSC to be limited. AS ESC is a subset of WSC, ESC will be low if WSC is low. I have seen very large spreads between these fractions; up to 10% when ingredients include cool season grasses grown in cool climates, like Canada. If the feed manufacturer cannot tell you what the WSC content is, time to find one that knows and limits that as well,.

                A thesis discussing this possibility:
                http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xm...pdf?sequence=1
                Last edited by Katy Watts; Apr. 14, 2013, 11:54 AM. Reason: added link to thesis
                Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  Thank you Katy, that is very helpful and I suspect that could be what is going on with her. I just tried her this morning on the new extruded, just 200 grams, 20% fat, 20% crude fiber and just 9% ESC, protein 12%. It looks like dog food, big kibble chunks, but smelled pretty good. She seemed to like it which is a hopeful start. Now we maintain this and wait for the next week and see what happens.

                  To the other person who asked about alfalfa - she has reacted with a resurgence of laminitis when I tried alfalfa - even soaked.
                  Practice! Patience! Persistence!
                  http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
                  https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses/

                  Comment


                  • What a bummer on the alfalfa but the new extruded thing seems promising? Is it a custom mix, or a commercial one? (If commercially available, others may benefit from knowing the name of it.)
                    Jeanie
                    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                    Comment


                    • Have been following this thread and I am so sorry for what you and your mare are going through - years ago I dealt with a mare who foundered post foaling and it is truly a balancing act of what they need and what they can tolerate.

                      Have you looked into Teff hay? I got some last year and all of my guys loved it and I believe it is recommended for horses with metabolic issues

                      Comment


                      • Any updates??
                        If there are no pets in Heaven then I want to go where they went !!!
                        RIP Maybe June 13,1993-Sept.23,2006,Dexter March 11,1983-Sept.23,2009, Joey 1997?-June 21,2012, Abbey Dec.7, 2003-Aug.29-2016.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          Thought maybe I could update. I haven't been online for quite a while - been too busy! We had 4 foals born this year, but the last filly born June 14th died after 24 hours. Interestingly, all our foals were born on either the 7th or 14th of each month - the first filly on May 7th, the second filly on May 14th, a colt June 7th, and a filly on June 14th. Never had that happen before!

                          My laminitic mare foaled her colt on June 7th. Her delivery itself was straight forward, but when she got up it got a little scary. Usually, she stays down after a delivery and it's the foal that breaks the umbilical cord, but for whatever reason she got up really quickly and broke it, but instead of it breaking close to the colt's belly, it broke about 6 inches below her vulva, and then suddenly there was arterial spray spurting everywhere spraying the walls and quickly covering me in her blood head to toe. In all my years breeding, I've never seen that before. Her end of the stump was hugely engorged. Watching her while rummaging around in all the blood trying to find the dang bleeder, I could see her shaking and trembling, but I couldn't find the pumper. DH being involved in medicine like me, was taking her pulse and noting her heart rate was skyrocketing into the 140s, and then she staggered a few times before she collapsed down to her sternum with hubby pulling on the halter with all the strength in his 6'4" body in an effort to prevent her from crushing her newborn colt, and finally she passed out rolling over stone-cold onto her side. With her down, we finally found the bleeder and got it clamped and tied off. She recovered onto her sternum pretty quickly, but it was over an hour before she tried to get up. Once the vet arrived, he checked her, removed her placenta, made sure she wasn't bleeding any more. He was a bit surprised at all the blood, estimated she had lost 2-3 Liters. It's a lot, but not life threatening to a horse her size. She went shocky because she had lost it too quickly for the body to compensate. It's a good thing I'm not queasy around blood! Events like this are rare in breeding, but they do happen. I'm just glad both DH and I were attending her foaling or the outcome may have been very different.

                          In spite of my fears about what condition the foal might arrive in due to all the drugs she had received during this pregnancy, he arrived looking spiffy and perfect. All body parts accounted for in the correct places, and legs in perfect condition! He's perfect and such a happy, cheerful little fellow who loves human contact and attention. He gets a lot of that, of course, because his mother still needs a lot of management.

                          About 2 weeks after she foaled, she developed foal-heat laminitis. We'd anticipated this and were treating preventatively and so it was nipped very quickly. Shortly after that, she developed an abscess in her right foot which finally blew out the coronet band. Four days ago she brewed another abscess, this time in the left front. It finally blew last night out her heel. So, she is having a really tough year and I think it is pushing her to her limits.

                          Her front hooves are starting grow. She used to have such beautiful feet and now it's shocking to see her hoof growth following the tilted coffin bone - it's really ugly. Farrier says to expect more abscessing because there has been severe damage.

                          Normally, the horses go out into the big fields to graze all summer, but we are keeping her in the barnyard and the other mares and foals are keeping her company. It's about 5 acres to wander in. The vet said we could try her grazing around the yard, so we started her slowly at 30 minutes for a few days, then an hour, and so on. She hasn't reacted at all and being outdoors has done wonders for her psyche and she's happy to be with her 6-year-old daughter and filly (her granddaughter is now 8 weeks old), and the other mare and her 10-wk filly. The bugs are out in swarms and hoards, forcing limited grazing for everyone, but Nikki also tends to self-limit herself to about 2 hours a day, preferring to come into a corner paddock to rest in the deep shavings, which is perfect actually. Come September she won't be allowed out at all as the grass will spike sugar. It's neat to walk out and see her resting there because quite often all 3 babies are sprawled out at her feet while the other mommies graze. I guess they trust her to be the babysitter.

                          She struggles, however, because her feet are sore all the time. She can't keep up with her colt when he runs and she has a lot of anxiety about that. When the rest of the mares go off to play, she can only stand and watch while calling, and it's really hard on her when her colt leaves her to join the herd. Mr Independent is 7 weeks old now, but like all foals that age, he doesn't have a clue just how much trouble he could get into. The other mares will herd him back to her, so it's taking a community to raise him. He's living with 5 girls so he's certainly learning to mind his manners!

                          We have made the decision that she will probably be put down in the fall after the colt is weaned unless her feet or some other health issue dictates more radical timing. But for now, despite her very sore feet, she is happy to be a mommy and doing the best she can and that's good enough for us too.
                          Practice! Patience! Persistence!
                          http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
                          https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses/

                          Comment


                          • I am so glad you provided an update. I was wondering. What a miracle that she was able to carry the foal through such health problems. It is another miracle that both you and DH were there with her when she foaled! What is the extruded feed that she was on? I am glad you found something that worked for her. Cyber hugs on knowing she may be crossing the Rainbow Bridge this year, but what a blessing that it has been postponed. That is so neat that the other mares are helping out with supervising her colt.
                            Jeanie
                            RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                            Comment


                            • Rodawn, so glad to get you pm and to see your update... I was thinking of you so often and really wondering what had happened. I am so happy to know that she did carry to term and delivered a beautiful colt. I just hope she is not in too much pain and that the abscesses stop soon. I so wish you did not have to put her down. She so deserves a great retirement. I will keep her in my positive vibes folder and hope for the best. Give her a big hug!!!
                              And congratulations for all your hard work to make her happy and comfortable.
                              Keep us posted! and we'd love pictures of your babies!!

                              Comment


                              • Rodawn, you and/or your Vet should go to this conference and present your mare's case for discussion and for the educational value for the attendees:
                                http://www.nolaminitis.org/
                                Jeanie
                                RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                                Comment


                                • Thank you for the update, and congratulations on your miracle colt. I had feared the worst, not having heard in a while. I hope mama and baby can now get on with the business of living. Sorry about the filly you lost, as well.
                                  Click here before you buy.

                                  Comment


                                  • Wow, that is astonishing. My face was the whole time reading about your poor mare! I am SO glad mare's filly made it, as that would have just been devastating after all you've done to help the mare, had she not. I'm so so sorry the other filly did not If I may be so bold - what happened with her?

                                    I love the idea of being able to present this mare's case to that conference. All the case studies the world can learn from, the better, and maybe the closer to finding a quick cure for many more cases.
                                    ______________________________
                                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                    Comment


                                    • JB, she had a colt!!!
                                      I am still jingling for your mare that, somehow, she can keep living happily!

                                      Comment


                                      • I am so sorry you lost the filly...how heartbreaking.
                                        Jeanie
                                        RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                                        Comment

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