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Vaccination issues

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    Originally posted by BuddyRoo View Post
    Different NSAIDs do different things. Some are better for ortho/muscle pain and some are better at fever reduction.

    It's kind of like the difference between ibuprofen and acetaminophen in people. Ibuprofen is better for muscle aches/arthritis. Acetaminophen is better for fever reduction and pain.

    I am surprised that if you've already talked to your veterinarian, these options haven't come up?

    This isn't exactly a remarkable/unique situation.

    We have briefly discussed issues but what happened is - when I just bought him I knew he would need the US vaccinations; I wanted to split them up. So we did West Nile, then I wanted to split up the other vaccinations but vet came out and did the remaining ones all at once... he got a fever of 105. So we weren't sure of what vaccine caused the reaction and she said he was probably just naive to the US vaccinations. That was in August.

    February he is at new barn with new vet because my vet doesn't go to that area. New vet was told he had a reaction before so they gave banamine at the time hoping this would do the trick... he was feeling sooo bad that he was not drinking and had to have IV fluids.

    So since he had Rabies, West Nile (which he didn't react to before and it's the same brand used in August) and Flu/Rhino we feel the reaction was either Rabies or Flu/Rhino.

    I don't know this new vet but we definitely will have a better plan for next vaccinations. I was asking on COTH to get ideas of what has worked for those that have experienced this......

    I always feel it's important to discuss with the vet and trust them.. after all they are the one that has the training, but I never disregard experience of others. I have heard from my vet that very often the owners know their horse better than the vet does......
    Live in the sunshine.
    Swim in the sea.
    Drink the wild air.

    Comment


    • #22
      WNV when Fort Dodge had a corner on the market had a lot of reactions a few years ago--but it was the adjuvant, not really the vaccine piece itself. FluRhino tends to have more reactions as well and I've not really seen a difference between manufacturers. Those are the two biggies that I like to separate.

      FluRhino for me--in 3 horses--has meant a fever and stiffness at best. At worst, we've gone off feed and had localized reactions.

      Just talk to your vet. My understanding from the seminar at MSU on this topic was that banamine is still the best medication to use for non-anaphylaxis.

      But I'm not a veterinarian nor do I play one on TV.

      Best wishes!

      Oh, ...thehorse.com has a lot of white papers on stuff like this. It's free to sign up. Might be a good resource for you.
      A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

      Might be a reason, never an excuse...

      Comment


      • #23
        Different NSAIDs do different things. Some are better for ortho/muscle pain and some are better at fever reduction.
        I don't agree--NSAIDs are pretty much NSAIDs. They are not going to prevent a body from mounting a proper immune response, either. Corticosteroids theoretically could, though.
        Click here before you buy.

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        • #24
          It sounds like you are doing all of the right things. I was told by my vet the West Nile shot is stronger this year and horses are having adverse reactions to it especially when given the same month as other shots.

          We split shots about once per quarter and insist on fresh and cooled vaccines (some vets don't bring them to the farm in coolers, a risk in the TX heat), but it does seem that some horses are just more sensitive to shots in general.

          Hope it all works out.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #25
            Originally posted by SanJacMonument View Post
            It sounds like you are doing all of the right things. I was told by my vet the West Nile shot is stronger this year and horses are having adverse reactions to it especially when given the same month as other shots.

            We split shots about once per quarter and insist on fresh and cooled vaccines (some vets don't bring them to the farm in coolers, a risk in the TX heat), but it does seem that some horses are just more sensitive to shots in general.

            Hope it all works out.
            Thank you! I suppose I am a bit paranoid due to loosing a horse years ago after a bad vaccine reaction.

            I love the idea of insisting on fresh, cooled vaccines. I believe the horse I lost years ago had a bad batch of vaccines. If they are not stored properly this can really be an issue and like you, I am in So Cal where it gets pretty hot in this desert.
            Live in the sunshine.
            Swim in the sea.
            Drink the wild air.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by BuddyRoo View Post
              Different NSAIDs do different things. Some are better for ortho/muscle pain and some are better at fever reduction.

              It's kind of like the difference between ibuprofen and acetaminophen in people. Ibuprofen is better for muscle aches/arthritis. Acetaminophen is better for fever reduction and pain.

              I am surprised that if you've already talked to your veterinarian, these options haven't come up?

              This isn't exactly a remarkable/unique situation.
              Agreed. Which is why I use Banamine on the ones that tend to spike fevers and Previcox on the ones that may get a little sore.
              Originally posted by EquineImagined
              My subconscious is a wretched insufferable beotch.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                I don't agree--NSAIDs are pretty much NSAIDs. They are not going to prevent a body from mounting a proper immune response, either. Corticosteroids theoretically could, though.
                I respectfully disagree with you then...and I normally agree with most that you post. But the truth is, certain NSAID do a better jobs as analgesics rather than just reducing inflammatory response based on the the information I've seen. I'm open to new information. But...generally my understanding is that banamine is better as a fever and pain reducer than say bute which is better at tackling the inflammation related to osteo/joint pain.

                That said, corticosteroids are a different ballgame.
                A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                Comment


                • #28
                  Just from an anecdotal point of view, I have heard/read about many more adverse reactions to Fort Dodge vaccines than any other brand. I know several people that have switched to Intervet vaccines and no longer have reaction issues.

                  Did you ask the vet which brand he used on your horse? Whatever it is, maybe try a different brand next time? I believe different companies use different adjuvants/carriers for their vaccines.
                  Caitlin
                  *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                  http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by RedMare01 View Post
                    Just from an anecdotal point of view, I have heard/read about many more adverse reactions to Fort Dodge vaccines than any other brand. I know several people that have switched to Intervet vaccines and no longer have reaction issues.

                    Did you ask the vet which brand he used on your horse? Whatever it is, maybe try a different brand next time? I believe different companies use different adjuvants/carriers for their vaccines.

                    As we play detective figuring out what the reaction is to - the West Nile was Veterra, the Flu/Rhino was Calvenza and I don't know what the EWT was.

                    I feel he is reactive to the Flu/Rhino.... but I understand there is a intranasal form that I think is worth a try next vaccination date.
                    Live in the sunshine.
                    Swim in the sea.
                    Drink the wild air.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Pyrogen (released by white blood cell as part of the inflammatory respone) travels to hypothalamus. Hypothalamus starts cranking out prostaglandins. Fever ensues. NSAIDs given. Prostaglandin production cut down sharply. Fever comes down. As the effect of NSAIDs is primarily to reduce production of prostaglandins (this is a CLASS EFFECT), they all have essentially the same action, assuming equivalent dosing. Obviously giving 4 grams of bute is going to give a stronger response than 100mg of aspirin. But there is no significant difference at the tissue level between one and the other. The hypothalamus can't tell the difference--it just knows prostaglandin production is being shut down and it's time to dial down the thermostat. The so-called superiority of this or that NSAID for pain or swelling or bone or bruising or tendon or muscle or GI side effects or fever is largely urban legend, tribal custom, conventional wisdom, whatever you wish to call it. I would be willing to say "entirely" instead of "largely" but I would certainly allow room for a qualifier, and would be happy to learn from the correction, if someone could produce something besides "I've always heard" as evidence.
                      Last edited by deltawave; Feb. 16, 2013, 05:00 PM.
                      Click here before you buy.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Lancet, Volume 374, Issue 9698, Pages 1339 - 1350, 17 October 2009

                        Effect of prophylactic paracetamol administration at time of vaccination on febrile reactions and antibody responses in children: two open-label, randomised controlled trials

                        Deltawave, premedicating children with Tylenol before vaccine administration was shown in one study to decrease the immune response. Whether or not premedicating horses with Banamine before vaccines has an effect seems unknown. If I had a horse who got colicky or got high fevers after vaccines, I might premedicate. Otherwise, I will continue to just watch them carefully after vaccines and give meds if needed. Of course, I'm not a vet and horses are not just oversized children.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I have seen that paper and it is worth weighing, but it only studied tylenol. I think if I had the choice of a really uncomfortable horse and a slightly lower titer I'd take the lower titer, all things considered. The paper did not suggest in any way that the antibody response was rendered insufficient with tylenol, only that it was lower.
                          Click here before you buy.

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                          • #33
                            I do not do the double/triple/quadruple vaccinations any more. Too many bad reactions. I do the bare minimum, singly, and space them out. Also you can ask show management and barn management if they will accept titers in lue of vaccinations. If you can prove that the horse has immunity with titers, maybe you don't have to vaccinate so excessively.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #34
                              Originally posted by arlosmine View Post
                              I do not do the double/triple/quadruple vaccinations any more. Too many bad reactions. I do the bare minimum, singly, and space them out. Also you can ask show management and barn management if they will accept titers in lue of vaccinations. If you can prove that the horse has immunity with titers, maybe you don't have to vaccinate so excessively.
                              Good idea and it never hurts to ask.... Especially when the horse colics as well.
                              Live in the sunshine.
                              Swim in the sea.
                              Drink the wild air.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
                                5 and 6 with a horse.. yay. I thought the Oaks and Gold Coast had requirements? Just Thermal?
                                I just scrolled through the online prize lists for the Spring Oaks Shows and the Gold Coast Shows and saw no mention of it. That doesn't mean that it's not there or that there is a requirement that isn't posted in the premium.
                                The Evil Chem Prof

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Underthebridge View Post
                                  What country is the horse from? Hard to believe he was never vaccinated before entering the U.S.

                                  Are you serious??
                                  The vaccines in Germany are different. My mare was vaccinated regularly in Germany and is also sensitive to the US vaccines (not sure how sensitive she was in Germany).

                                  We give Banamine with the injections now. She had an edema (hematoma?) for a few weeks after her last fall shots. And she spiked a fever a couple days after the round. I think they should have been split up more. I'll talk with the vet about some of the recommendations here before we do spring shots.
                                  Born under a rock and owned by beasts!

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