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Shallow soles?? Info, experiences, advice, please share.....

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  • Shallow soles?? Info, experiences, advice, please share.....

    So my clients 9 year old QH has been diagnosed with shallow soles.

    Briefly, he has been lame for almost 2 weeks. Initial diagnoses a stone bruise as there was some heat and he tested positive with hoof testers. Blocked and was sound on a straight line. Not surprising with the sub freezing temperatures. A week later, no heat for 6 days fine at walk, lame at trot. Vet does xrays on Mon, which are clean (YAY!) but does notice the soles is very thin. He is still lame (1 out of 5) on a small circle.

    She said there could be a bruise but very small as he does not test positive with hoof tester.

    Her advice was tell farrier to not take anything off the sole and let it grow in. He should be better in a couple of weeks. If no noticeable improvement then its pads and then go from there.

    We continued 2g bute per day just to keep him comfortable. I lunged him in the indoor yesterday which has soft deep footing and he was 100% sound. So no bute from yesterday to today. A friend rode him today in indoor. He started off fine and then got short strided so she stopped and just walked.

    Vet's advice was turnout is OK but does not like the idea of pads just yet, to give him some time to grow out hoof and see. She agreed that he should move some to encourage hoof growth. I think not more than a walk in the indoor at this point and with the blizzard closing in that is all we will have!
    He only gets 3 hours of turnout per day in dry paddock.

    So..... any else has experience with this? I sure don't have any!

    thank you all.....AGAIN!
    Last edited by ctab; Feb. 7, 2013, 06:10 PM.
    "I am a sand dancer... just here for the jumps!" - Schrammo
    http://atoxcequestrian.com/
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/127749947563045/

  • #2
    Durasole is your friend.

    Further, I disagree with the veterinarian. I would shoe this horse with a wide webbed shoe and a rim pad and continue the durasole or perhaps, use Magic Cushion Extreme and bandage that into the hoof , changing it daily or at least every other day. I do agree that the hoof care provider needs to keep his/her knife in the pocket on the shoeing apron.

    Comment


    • #3
      fwiw I like magic cushion extreme--I used just like Rick Burten says on a mare that had a really bad abscess dug out --packed it in and kept bandaged until everything grew out. (When packed in, it gets a nice almost waxy type consistency although its awful sticky starting out with a spatula and i used furascin smeared on anything I didnt want it to stick on! )

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thank you!

        I did look into other threads that were linked below and I see a common theme.
        Some corrective shoeing, like wide webbed shoes and a rim pad, some sole treatment, Durasole or MCE and hopefully time and he should go back to normal.

        The idea for the short term seems to be some more support for the hoof to be a little higher off the ground to give the sole relief while giving it time to toughen and thicken helped by no removal of sole by farrier and the application of hoof toughener!

        I think I reasoned out why it happened, based on other's experience. A wet, cold (but not below freezing until the last couple of weeks) winter created more mud than usual. Coming from muddy paddock to dry stall just insulates the mud in and creates more problems, like a soft sole that will slough off. Less sole and now turned out on frozen ground with ruts = stone bruise and sore feet!

        I talked to the owner & tomorrow I will discuss with the farrier and show him the xray and try the wide webbed shoes with a rim pad.

        Isn't 20 20 hind sight wonderful! sounds so simple and logical when you get the answer.

        Thank you all so much again!
        "I am a sand dancer... just here for the jumps!" - Schrammo
        http://atoxcequestrian.com/
        https://www.facebook.com/groups/127749947563045/

        Comment


        • #5
          FWIW I've been going through this with my mare. Gravel was hauled in to deal with the interminable mud. The gravel (not pea gravel) debrided the sole faster than she could grow it, resulting in thin soles and discomfort. Vet was concerned that pads would create too much opportunity for thrush and general nastiness because it's just so wet. Mare is out 24/7, although she has access to stall anytime she wants. It's attached to her paddock.

          Farrier suggested a leather pad with a vee cut out over the frog. Leather pad protects the sole, the opening allows us to gently brush the frog and apply Tomorrow or Today cream about 3 times a week.

          She was sound almost right away and able to resume work. No bute. Sole is getting thicker. Next week she'll be reset; there may be one more cycle of pads. She's ending her second cycle with the pads in front. Farrier wasn't a fan of DuraSole or similar in this case. Said the sole would still be thin, just harder.

          I also addressed the footing and drainage in her paddock so it doesn't debride her soles and permits drainage.

          Good luck.

          Comment


          • #6
            My mare doesn't seem to grow much sole at all. Is there something I could be doing for her - other than shoeing- that will help encourage sole growth?

            Comment


            • #7
              Keratex worked miracles for my horse who had dangerously thin soles.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by stryder View Post
                Farrier wasn't a fan of DuraSole or similar in this case. Said the sole would still be thin, just harder. ....
                And according to him/her, that would be a bad thing because? Does your farrier understand how Durasole works? If not, s/he should become acquainted with its properties before pronouncing judgement.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
                  And according to him/her, that would be a bad thing because? Does your farrier understand how Durasole works? If not, s/he should become acquainted with its properties before pronouncing judgement.
                  He's a certified farrier with the AFA. I thought that's supposed to mean something.

                  He may use DuraSole in other cases. But in my case, as I said, he recommended the leather pads. They are working nicely.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Speaking of pronouncing judgement, maybe somebody <cough cough> should examine the horse before pronouncing judgement. Or saying somebody who has actually seen the horse is wrong. Just a thought. I know you guys are the bestest of the best farriers in the universe, but I didn't know you had the ability to diagnose a horse through a computer, that is special!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by stryder View Post
                      He's a certified farrier with the AFA. I thought that's supposed to mean something.
                      It does, and, It Depends..........

                      He may use DuraSole in other cases. But in my case, as I said, he recommended the leather pads. They are working nicely.
                      Pads are usually a viable option. Perhaps he will share with you and then you with us, how that is going to do anything to improve your horse's sole depth and/or toughness. Also, you state that the soles are getting thicker. Since the horse is wearing pads, absent radiographs, how do you know that?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pal-o-mino View Post
                        Speaking of pronouncing judgement, maybe somebody <cough cough> should examine the horse before pronouncing judgement.
                        What judgement, precisely, have I rendered? Or is it that yet again any requirement for an ability to read for content in context with comprehension has been waived?

                        Or saying somebody who has actually seen the horse is wrong.
                        Did I say that? Oh, right, its that 'waived requirement' rearing its ugly head again.

                        Just a thought. I know you guys are the bestest of the best farriers in the universe, but I didn't know you had the ability to diagnose a horse through a computer, that is special!
                        No one, especially me, has ever claimed to be the 'bestest(sic) of the best farriers in the Universe' but I am not surprised by your lack of knowledge regarding what I am or am not capable of. It does compliment your other knowledge and other skills (as you represent on the forum) limitations.

                        And, I stand by the sentiment expressed in the first line below my name in the signature area of my posts.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have an appendix that had thin soles and crappy feet. Much of his problem was due to terrible turnout and poor feed. I moved him in July and pulled his shoes. He is on Farriers Formula and Smart Sox. I also use durasole 4-5x per week. He has made amazing progress. I wish I knew how to post before and after pictures. I also bought a pair of renegade boots that I ride in if he is sore but I haven't needed them for a few months but if I am riding on rocky terrain he will wear them. It is so nice not to have to worry about him losing shoes and tearing his feet up in the process. I bought a 2 oz spray bottle that I put the durasole in and it is so much easier to apply.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
                            It does, and, It Depends..........


                            Pads are usually a viable option. Perhaps he will share with you and then you with us, how that is going to do anything to improve your horse's sole depth and/or toughness. Also, you state that the soles are getting thicker. Since the horse is wearing pads, absent radiographs, how do you know that?
                            Sorry, OP, I didn't intend to hijack your thread.

                            Rick, my mare will never have truly great hooves. But in the past 4 years, thin soles haven't been a problem. Poor horn quality to the extent they won't hold shoes, etc., but not thin soles. Mid-November she was very ouchy on both fronts. The sole had a fair amount of flex. Vet did radiographs and yep, thin soles.

                            Her environment, the sharp gravel, was exfoliating the sole faster than she could make it. DuraSole wouldn't have done anything to help to protect them while they grew. And when we were able to change at least some of the footing so exfoliation wouldn't be a problem moving forward.

                            He put on leather pads on Nov. 17. Trimmed out the vee over the frog, soaked them and put them on. He checked them about 5 weeks later. The soles don't flex under my thumb, the soles look great, she's sound. We'll know more Wednesday when she's reset.

                            We're at the end of a long haul that started nearly 2 years ago when she became very ill and lost more than 300 lbs. All I can think of is that for several months her hooves were the last in line for any nutrients she took in. Her hooves the past year have been crappy. Mud was an issue, too. But it's easy to see they're getting better.

                            I think the reason my farrier went with the pads over DuraSole was that DuraSole wouldn't protect the sole. Harden it, but that wasn't enough for my particular horse, at this particular time.

                            YMMV, of course.

                            Back to the regular programming.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I wonder sometimes about pads, as the horses I've seen "convert" to them are not so successful once you remove the padding. I think that part of it has to do with the lack of aerobic magic going on there: if the hoof is constantly protected, it wont develop a barrier of sole (if this makes sense?). I would be alongside your vet about trying to prevent pads from occurring.

                              My old gelding had terribly thin soles - so thin, my farrier joked he didn't even have "soles". He would have stone-bruise after stone bruise. We never corrected this with pads -- just normal shoes in the front (the other gelding with thin soles on the property DID get pads -- and he STILL gets stonebruises). For a while, I put some Keratex on his soles (about 2x a week for 2 weeks and then once a week for about a month - I also did this in the spring) - the difference wasn't noticed until about a month later.. Makes sense.. as that's how long it takes a hoof to grow. Should note he never had a stone bruise after the Keratex!

                              In addition to the Keratex I did a lot of long-distance riding on trails. Sounds counter intuitive, but you don't build a callous without the callous work! That, coupled with the Keratex, seemed to make him a lot more savvy about his feet.

                              I never rode him over gravel, asphalt, or stonebed if I could help it - particularly Asphalt, as if a horse steps on a rock on asphalt there's no give and a stone bruise is definite.

                              IME, and this is just my E, stone bruising seems to happen most in the winter and the spring - no doubt to the mud or standing in a stall longer than usual.. Moisture can soften their sole, and going out on frozen turf can also surprisingly debride it - I suspect most of my TB's previous stone bruises actually came from stepping on frozen mud, not stone. Who knows! Good luck either way!
                              AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by stryder View Post
                                Rick, my mare will never have truly great hooves. But in the past 4 years, thin soles haven't been a problem. Poor horn quality to the extent they won't hold shoes, etc., but not thin soles.
                                Did you ever figure out why the horn quality is poor?
                                . Vet did radiographs and yep, thin soles.
                                In millimeters, how thin?
                                Her environment, the sharp gravel, was exfoliating the sole faster than she could make it. DuraSole wouldn't have done anything to help to protect them while they grew.
                                "Durasole is an aldehyde-based sole dressing formulated to harden the equine exfoliating sole and frog. It is extremely effective in enhancing the protective capabilities of those structures and does not affect the proximal sensitive sole or frog. Durasole works by swelling and thickening the cell membranes of the exfoliating sole, not by coating the sole with impermeable oils. Because of its unique formulation, Durasole can be used for extended periods of time on chronically thin-soled horses without fear of drying out the foot as it does not compromise the moisture balance of the foot when used as directed. Durasole creates a tough, natural, pad between your horse's sensitive sole and the world's often hostile environment. "
                                He put on leather pads on Nov. 17. Trimmed out the vee over the frog, soaked them and put them on. He checked them about 5 weeks later.
                                Checked how? During a reset with the shoes/pads off, or otherwise?

                                The soles don't flex under my thumb, the soles look great, she's sound.
                                Is she still wearing pads? If so, how do you know what the soles look like or whether or not the soles are flexing?
                                We'll know more Wednesday when she's reset.
                                It is my sincere hope that things are progressing positively.
                                I think the reason my farrier went with the pads over DuraSole was that DuraSole wouldn't protect the sole. Harden it, but that wasn't enough for my particular horse, at this particular time.
                                Fair enough. That said, it is demonstrable that Durasole does indeed aid in sole protection.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I'd appreciate the vets opinion, but let the farrier treat from here. They are the foot experts.

                                  I had a similar issue with a mare when I was in my teens. The vet said give her time off, keep her inside, and let the foot grow out. Farrier said medicated pads for a few months. We put the pads on, and she was totally sound less than 24 hours later. She wore them for 6 months, and in the summer, when the ground was dry, we transitioned her out. She did just fine and never had another problem.
                                  Strong promoter of READING the entire post before responding.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
                                    Did you ever figure out why the horn quality is poor?
                                    She was quite ill for an extended period of time. The vet said her ability to absorb nutrients likely became compromised and she was on massive amounts of drugs for several weeks. I think we're dealing with the last of the horn created during that time. But prior to her illness horn quality was sufficient to hold shoes and I can't recall a time she was ouchy. Plus, she's a TB/Paint. Lameness vet said their soles tend to be thin.

                                    Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
                                    In millimeters, how thin?
                                    I don't recall. Thin enough to be ouchy and need protection - lameness vet recommended boots.

                                    Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
                                    Checked how? During a reset with the shoes/pads off, or otherwise? Is she still wearing pads? If so, how do you know what the soles look like or whether or not the soles are flexing?
                                    First check was a couple weeks in, when she pulled a shoe. Second re-check was a month after pads were applied when farrier reset. Next reset is scheduled for Wednesday, which is 6 weeks after the last one. The soles didn't flex at the last reset. Farrier had said she'd likely be in pads for 3 cycles, so I don't know if she'll get new ones on Wednesday. But I am expecting the pads to be transitional, not permanent.

                                    In general, the new hoof we're seeing is thicker and less crumbly than the hoof this farrier has been dealing with the past several months. I've been working with him a little over a year, since I moved my mare to my trainer's barn. This has been a long discouraging time for him, because crappy hooves have been all he's seen from this horse, and he doesn't have the history with her to know this isn't typical.


                                    Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
                                    It is my sincere hope that things are progressing positively.
                                    Thank you. Me, too. The past couple years have been one thing after another. I'm due for better news.

                                    Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
                                    That said, it is demonstrable that Durasole does indeed aid in sole protection.
                                    Fair enough. But it isn't going to be the answer for everyone. For one thing, I doubt my mare's hooves have been completely dry for months. And then there are these directions from Heartland Vet Supply on how to achieve fastest results: "Clean the foot with a hoofpick, paying careful attention to the lateral and medial sulcus of the frog, followed by vigorous wire brushing of entire solar area. For maximum effectiveness, sole and frog must be clean and dry before product is applied.
                                    "Use a hair dryer, heat gun, or similar tool to completely dry the frog and sole, apply Durasole while the solar surface is still warm and disperse with a brush (old toothbrush) until the sole is uniformly discolored, the solar surface of the hoof is fully saturated and product begins to pool instead of being absorbed. You will be amazed at the results!
                                    "Repeat the process: Wire brush, heat, apply Durasole, spread with brush until solar surface of foot is completely saturated. After two or three applications, your wire brush will begin to skid across the sole instead of roughing its surface which means Durasole is causing the cell membranes of the exfoliating sole to thicken and swell; in effect, forming a living pad.
                                    "Repeat the above process as outlined at least six times daily during the first week; four times daily for the next two weeks; then twice daily as long as the horse is in training. The results will be both immediate and long lasting."

                                    There is no way on this earth I could do that. Certainly my trainer's groom is not going to do that. But 2-3 times a week? Sure, that's possible.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      The directions for the Durasole are for MAX. results. However, it is still very effective if not followed to a "T". I understand sometimes pass are unavoidable I just hate having to use them unless absolutely necessary.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        A good friend has an OTTB mare, 4 years old, with flat feet and thin soles. In that case it has been a slow process of very careful trimming and letting the foot grow. The mare wears boots when she goes outside. My friend has resisted the urge to just shoe her with pads in lieu of giving the hoof time to grow out. It seems to be working very well with the biggest drawback the amount of time involved.
                                        "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp

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