• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Shoeing/Not Shoeing the Stifle Injury

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Shoeing/Not Shoeing the Stifle Injury

    Long story short. Lameness in left hind on my special mare. Had vet out and he took X-rays of both hock and stifle. X-rays were clean. Vet suspects soft tissue injury to the stifle though this particular vet doesn't have the diagnostics available to him to pinpoint the actual ligaments involved.

    I have the farrier coming tomorrow and had planned to pull her shoes for her imminent rest period (I'm told 4-6 months) with the vets blessing. What is the best for a horse with a ligament injury of the stifle? Vet told me to keep her heel as long as possible but that shoes can come off. Is this the best in your experience? I like to get as many opinions as possible. Vets are great but I also value a group of people who have already lived through what I am now going through. Opinions please?

  • #2
    I would certainly be concerned with asking the horse to hold the leg up for shoeing at this point. When we did IRAP in my mare's stifle, the vet chose to wait until AFTER she was trimmed to do the first injection, because she did not want her standing for any length of time with the joint flexed--and that was just with some stubborn inflammation and soreness, but the structures in the joint looked very nice on ultrasound.

    When we first evaluated my horse's stifle (radiographs and ultrasound) we located a strained MCL. The vet told me to give her time, and did not make any requests with regard to her feet. She was barefoot behind at the time, but shod in front. (Time wasn't effective at resolving the lameness, so we went to IRAP.)

    Are you treating the joint at all? Steroid, HA, IRAP? It's quite important to shut down the inflammatory process. A significant amount of cartilage is lost quickly if the inflammatory process is not addressed. Can you get a vet with an ultrasound out to evaluate? A blown joint capsule is different than a slight strain.

    If you'd care to send me your email address, I have an interesting article on treating stifle injuries I would be happy to forward.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Thank you for this input Simkie. I didn't know about the inflammation of the joint. Joint palates normal. So do you think she could still have an inflammatory response? She is very mildly lame. I'm hoping to do anything I can to be proactive here and give her the best shot at being a sound and productive girl. Is a regular ultrasound machine suitable to look at the joint or does it need something diagnostically extensive?

      Comment


      • #4
        Mine go barefoot behind when I can get away with it. I asked my vet about shoes once for my older gelding, with the thought that maybe shoes would help his hocks and stifles. My vets "adage" was that the higher up the leg issue, the less difference shoes make.
        Rest in peace Claudius, we will miss you.

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm kind of in a similar place with my horse. He's just starting to rehab from a stifle strain. He's totally sound now in walk and in in trot is slightly uneven in the hips but stepping up well underneath, but he does drag the toe a bit in the soft arena surface. We're doing 30-minute walking rides at the moment to help strengthen the stifles. (And boy is he happy to go) I've talked to my vet and farrier, and for now, we're keeping him barefoot behind and taking care to bevel the toe to assist breakover. We have talked about Natural Balance shoeing, which my farrier does, as a possible step, however.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by About Time View Post
            . . . Vet told me to keep her heel as long as possible but that shoes can come off.
            Might want to ask your vet how increasing the duration of the caudal phase of the stride is going to help the stifle.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by About Time View Post
              Thank you for this input Simkie. I didn't know about the inflammation of the joint. Joint palates normal. So do you think she could still have an inflammatory response? She is very mildly lame. I'm hoping to do anything I can to be proactive here and give her the best shot at being a sound and productive girl. Is a regular ultrasound machine suitable to look at the joint or does it need something diagnostically extensive?
              It's just a regular ultrasound and someone who is at least reasonably skilled at evaluating the images.

              If she's lame and there's an injury to the stifle, then there is an inflammatory response.

              Comment


              • #8
                My trainer's lesson horse appears to have some sort of old stifle injury. He actually swivels the hind hoof quite a bit at all gaits. He seems to be more comfortable with no shoes behind. However, this is a chronic issue, definitely not an old injury.
                The Evil Chem Prof

                Comment


                • #9
                  My mare had a torn collateral ligament and avulsion fracture of the stifle 13 years ago. She was diagnosed via ultrasound at New Bolton using the kind of equipment no regular vet would have. We kept her shod exactly the way she was - nothing in back at that time, shoes in front. After 3 1/2 months of stall rest, I was allowed one month of hand-walking followed by a month of walking under saddle (thank God for ace ). She returned to work after that (with shoes all around for most of that time) and was sound up to the point I retired her last year.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If the vet says the heels needs to be "as tall as possible", then that needs to be quantified, as that's very subjective.

                    You also need to find out exactly why.

                    Not all horses grow heel that grows up and down So, allowing heels to grow is either going to run them forward but still be tall, or run them forward and crush them. Neither is healthy for the foot or leg, and certainly not for stifles.

                    I know of a horse who sustained a really, really awful gash right above his coronet, and while I don't know the whole story, though I suspect it's related to the stress of healing such a high motion area, the horse is temporarily wearing a "stiletto" shoe - big ol' honkin' block on the heels to proper the foot up so he can bear weight on it without tearing things apart. Don't hammer the messenger here, I don't know details, only know he's wearing a shoe like that.

                    My point is, if the heels truly do need to be "high", then shoes may be the only way to go.

                    But you need lots more info. If all the vet means is "don't let his heels crush", then that's simply good trimming

                    Maybe it means a short term bedding situation that's very deep, fluffy shavings so his toes sink a bit, "raising" his heels.
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JB View Post
                      . . .
                      I know of a horse who sustained a really, really awful gash right above his coronet, and while I don't know the whole story, though I suspect it's related to the stress of healing such a high motion area, the horse is temporarily wearing a "stiletto" shoe - big ol' honkin' block on the heels to proper the foot up so he can bear weight on it without tearing things apart. Don't hammer the messenger here, I don't know details, only know he's wearing a shoe like that.
                      . . .
                      That implementation would be called a Patent Bar shoe.

                      Examples here: http://michaelporterdvm.blogspot.com...horseshoe.html

                      My point is, if the heels truly do need to be "high", then shoes may be the only way to go.
                      Most of the stifle problems I encounter seem to be linked in some way to excess heel height in the hinds with the medial heel being significantly higher forcing lateral torque on the limb.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                        That implementation would be called a Patent Bar shoe.

                        Examples here: http://michaelporterdvm.blogspot.com...horseshoe.html
                        I went back to look at pics of this other horse's set up and yep, that's it.

                        Most of the stifle problems I encounter seem to be linked in some way to excess heel height in the hinds with the medial heel being significantly higher forcing lateral torque on the limb.
                        I agree, hence the caveat that the OP needs to find out exactly what " heel as long as possible" means, because with the "but the shoes can come off" comment, that seems to make no sense
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          I've made a second vet appointment with my vet since I've brought the mare home last evening. She was at the trainer over an hr away so I couldn't use my vet to begin with. My vet is going to try to get a more detailed diagnosis so I can figure out what to do next. Since I have the farrier coming today, I plan to have him remove her shoes and trim normally. I made a call to the first vet's office to send the X-rays to my vet. So that's where I'm at right now. I will also talk things over with my farrier who is wonderful and has much expertise in corrective shoeing to help various lameness. Thank you all for your input. It has been most helpful!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JB View Post
                            . . .
                            I agree, hence the caveat that the OP needs to find out exactly what " heel as long as possible" means, because with the "but the shoes can come off" comment, that seems to make no sense
                            The history provided by the OP does not indicate that radiographs where used to asses phalangeal alignment - and such radiographs need to be done specifically for that purpose: Lateral and A/P views with both feet elevated on blocks, horse standing square, image plane exposed perpendicular to ground plane with the center of the image plane projected across the horn bearing surface. This protocol is well documented in the equine podiatry texts, but IME very few veterinarians outside of sports medicine or podiatry specialists use it.

                            That said, I would question any treatment protocol that requires changing how the foot is trimmed and/or shod when;
                            1. There is no definitive diagnosis regarding the specific lesion.
                            2. The existing conditions of phalangeal alignment have not been assessed with anything more than "rack of eye."
                            3. The practitioner cannot make a prognosis based on the outcome of multiple case histories having good results under the same conditions and treatment regiment.
                            4. The practitioner does not have specialized training and significant clinical experience in podiatry. This stuff is NOT part of the AVMA accredited graduation requirements for a DVM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Well, no disagreement here!
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                As long as her feet are going to hold up, then go for it. My horse sustained an injury that made it impossible for her to pick up her hind legs to be shod. The farrier managed to get her to stand with her leg resting so that he could get her shoes off without making her pick her foot up off the ground. She went barefoot for about 8 weeks and her feet completely fell apart. Now I am dealing with a lot of foot soreness and just went through a battle with an abscess, probably caused from her going barefoot when she isn't used to it. Of course I'm in New England and just after she got her shoes pulled, we had a lot of snow and ice and the moisture did a number on her feet along with the hard ground.
                                http://www.lucysquest.blogspot.com

                                Custom Painted Saddle Pads and Ornaments

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Discobold View Post
                                  My mare had a torn collateral ligament and avulsion fracture of the stifle 13 years ago. She was diagnosed via ultrasound at New Bolton using the kind of equipment no regular vet would have.
                                  Just curious--what equipment was this?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by JB View Post
                                    Well, no disagreement here!
                                    Indeed, I'm bored to tears.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      What ever happened to diagnostics?

                                      From the OP's statement. I understand that a veterinarian came out to see a lame horse. On the basis of radiographs which appeared to be normal, diagnosed soft tissue injury of the stifle. Recommended angle changes, in the feet.

                                      What ever happened to diagnostic nerve blocks, and ultrasounds?

                                      The OP needs another veterinarian ASAP.

                                      She needs a diagnosis !!!!
                                      Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                      Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                                        Might want to ask your vet how increasing the duration of the caudal phase of the stride is going to help the stifle.
                                        That made me go ?????? too.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X