• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Curious about MAP-5, Polyglycan, ChondroProtec and Pentosan?

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Curious about MAP-5, Polyglycan, ChondroProtec and Pentosan?

    Up on the Chronicle's home page today is an interesting article about the use of medical devices as drugs... http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...inary-medicine

    It makes for an interesting read, and one that's essential if you're considering using these products.

    Molly Sorge

  • #2
    So it is more about unethical vets catering to ignorant owners. The concepts written about in the article are not new or unheard of in human medicine.


    • #3
      I haven't finished the entire article yet but thanks for posting it. I will say, in advance of that, that I've been using Polyglycan on my older retired jumper and it has been remarkable in keeping him sound and comfortable. As good as Legend, in my own experience thus far. He gets 5 cc's IV every 10 days, more or less depending on how much he's ridden in a particular week.
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain


      • #4
        Thanks for posting the article. It was interesting and informative to read.
        Here is my 2 cents...
        I agree that MAP-5, Polyglycan and ChondroProtec may be questionable at best as valid treatments for equine joint disease because they are relatively new products for that purpose. Long term side effects, efficacy and results have not been studied. However, Pentosan Polysulfate has been used safely and effectively in Australia for over a decade. The drug is already licensed and approved there as well. Is it really neccessary to re invent the wheel here in the U.S with FDA approval of Pentosan Polysulfate in order for horse owners and vets to feel comfortable using it?

        Many horse owners and vets are comfortable using Pentosan Polysulfate from well known and trusted compounding pharmacies for the reasons stated above and I can't say I see any fault in that. Adequan and Legend are FDA approved products but there is equal risk in those products being ineffective for a particular horse as well.


        • #5
          These ARE drugs. Calling them "medical devices" is just a means of dodging FDA approval. However, FDA approval is a tedious and expensive process.

          I think it's possible for a critical-minded professional (like a vet) to make some extrapolations and hypothesize that these drugs might be safely and effectively used for equine problems without necessarily calling the entire kit and kaboodle "snake oil" or tantamount to using brandy to treat colic, etc. But this would imply that the decision to use these things is made with the FULL informed consent of the horse's owner that it is an unapproved treatment.

          IME, however, there is LITTLE TO NO "informed consent" used by vets when prescribing these prodcuts. I've asked a number of vets about them and have gotten everything from "never heard of it" to "I don't believe in that stuff" to "sometimes it helps" to "let's talk about the actual research" as a reply. IME I've had to be the one initiating the discussion--vets who don't know me have never offered anything but a specific product, no discussion of the risks, benefits, and alternatives. Vets who DO know me expect a barrage of questions.

          It appears that there's a whole lot of bandwagon-jumping going on, and I for one wonder about just who is driving said wagon--is it vets or is it owners? What is the motive? Profit? Desperation? Ignorance? A desire to learn more with 'field trials' on actual animals? All of the above?

          I'd wager it's "all of the above".

          The lack of informed consent in veterinary circles is shocking to me. I cannot IMAGINE recommending ANY product, drug, or treatment without full disclosure of whether it's approved, off label, new, old, etc. In fact, it's malpractice to fail to have this discussion on some level, ESPECIALLY for anything that's even minimally invasive. And since my general sense among vets I've worked with is that they are more interested in helping the animal than in necessarily toeing some sort of party line, I wonder how much pressure from horse owners is behind all of these products being used willy-nilly.
          Click here before you buy.


          • #6
            But Molly, great article.
            Click here before you buy.


            • #7
              Just because a drug is approved in a foreign country does not mean it will meet FDA guidelines. Many countries, including those in Europe, allow human experimentation to validate drugs and procedures. That is why American companies do initial research in Europe, Africa and South America.

              Yes, in race horses, Pentosan Polysulfate has shown to have efficacy in Australia, there is still a limited number of specimens to measure actual efficacy. The Australian studies I saw still alluded to significant risk of bleeding if the drug is used inappropriately. Of course, the FDA does not oversee veterinary meds and devices so in the US it is moot. It allows unscrupulous vets to sell dangerous or ineffective porducts, e.g. Gamboa and Carolina Gold, without risk.


              • #8
                Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                Just because a drug is approved in a foreign country does not mean it will meet FDA guidelines.
                One of the most famous examples in human medicine was the use of thalidomide as an antiemetic for morning sickness (and several other uses). Approved for use in other countries, the FDA denied approval in this country.


                • #9
                  Human studies are performed right here in the USA, too.
                  Click here before you buy.


                  • #10
                    And Pentosan is an FDA approved drug, just not for joints.
                    Click here before you buy.


                    • #11
                      Yes, DW, but that is after the preclinical trials. Other places, it is allowed to use unknowing humans as part of the clinical trials.

                      You should see the world of orthopaedics in Brazil!! Drs. Are allowed to make replacement joints at the local auto repair garage!


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                        Of course, the FDA does not oversee veterinary meds and devices so in the US it is moot. It allows unscrupulous vets to sell dangerous or ineffective porducts, e.g. Gamboa and Carolina Gold, without risk.
                        Just to clarify one thing- the FDA DOES oversee veterinary drugs in the US. Veterinary devices are another story, however (don't get me started on that part). There is a bit of a compounding issue WRT veterinary compounds (in terms of things not being as strictly enforced at the moment), but it is something the Agency is aware of and will work on it when resources allow.


                        • #13
                          A very good article. I really think a lot of horse owners and unfortunately, some vets, simply do not understand or (choose to ignore, because of the much cheaper cost) the risks of using compounded drugs, especially sterile injectibles. I've posted in the past that I thought FDA guidance allowed for the compounding of drugs like Pentosan, but I just re-read the guidance and I have to say, I think it is at best a grey area. 21 CFR 530.13(b) pretty clearly states that it's only acceptable if there is no other approved drug out there that will treat the condition (so, for joint issues, Adequan & Legend).

                          I also did a quick search on FDA's enforcement reports, and came up with this one for a vet compounding pharmacy distributing pentosan that was found to have fungal growth in their clean room. I'm sure there are more out there.

                          I won't be surprised at all if the more ethical compounding pharmacies stop offering Pentosan and some of the other products mentioned in the article, either voluntarily or because FDA begins to look closer into this issue (I always think of the FDA as the Eye of Sauron and woe is you if the Eye turns it's attention to you! )

                          I think bulletin boards like COTH make it easy for people to jump on the bandwagon of "everyone else is doing it" without having to be educated on the issues and risks (I've spent 15 years in the manufacturing and formulation development side of the pharma industry, so I feel fairly comfortable making these evaluations for myself). In fact, I feel like I bear some responsibility for some of the bandwagon jumping with the omeprazole threads, which is for the most part why I stopped posting on them. Not that I'm not going to keep using the Abler granules, but I'm not actively going to enAble (pun intended ) other people to import off-shore drugs.
                          ~Living the life I imagined~