• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

The impossible to float mare... what to do?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    Originally posted by SLW View Post
    First thing I would do is see what sedation options are out there that you haven't tried. There might not be any but make sure.

    Second, for 10 years I worked for an equine vet and when a horse blows up in the stocks by going up or down it's a frigging mess. The horse survives but it isn't pretty- especially with the horse cross tied. We had a couple clients horses that had to be dropped for dentals and that worked out very well. It cost a little more to drop them but the trade off is they are damaged or broken at the end of the dental.

    Good luck.
    This. There is no way I would restrain a potential hysterical panicky horse in stocks.
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

    Comment


    • #22
      A horse cannot go up or down in a properly constructed set of stocks.

      Unfortunately a well made set of stocks is as rare as hens teeth.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
        This. There is no way I would restrain a potential hysterical panicky horse in stocks.
        I stopped working at that clinic and the practice I use now does dentals so much better. The horses chin is on a free standing stand and the horse isn't restrained. Plus my new vet uses a much better power float tool. If there is a sedation issue, there isn't a panic issue because the horse hits the ends of cross ties.

        Tom- the stocks were horse stocks though they aren't as well designed as the ones at the practice I use now. A horse struggling with sedation would sit back and have their hips/legs come underneath them so they would be sitting dog like. Other times horses would lift their front legs up to get away, hit the cross ties and struggle. It was NOT an every week thing it was a thing that happens from time to time when a vet is dosing to the average for a horse and not having a history on the horses sedation tolerance.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by SLW
          when a horse blows up in the stocks by going up or down it's a frigging mess. The horse survives but it isn't pretty- especially with the horse cross tied. We had a couple clients horses that had to be dropped for dentals and that worked out very well. It cost a little more to drop them but the trade off is they are damaged or broken at the end of the dental..... A horse struggling with sedation would sit back and have their hips/legs come underneath them so they would be sitting dog like. Other times horses would lift their front legs up to get away, hit the cross ties and struggle.
          Interesting behind the scenes perspective. This is progress? The new normal? Dropping horses for dental? Perhaps something could be learned from the old fashioned approach?
          OP I'd try a second opinion if there is an option
          http://www.traditionalequinedentistry.com/

          Comment


          • #25
            I'm just throwing this out there, but is she perhaps afraid of what she is seeing, i.e., a human with scary tools approaching her, and could a blindfold help? It is also possible that she is sensitive to the grinding noise and vibration. Horses, as I understand it, don't have nerves in their teeth the same way humans do...the nerves are down much deeper in the root.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by SLW View Post
              . . .Tom- the stocks were horse stocks though they aren't as well designed as the ones at the practice I use now. A horse struggling with sedation would sit back and have their hips/legs come underneath them so they would be sitting dog like.
              IMO a well made set of stocks has adjustable padded straps over and under at the girth and flank, behind the buttocks, and forward of the shoulder. 'nuther words the horse could pick up all 4 feet and still be supported as with a sling, AND the horse is prevented from shifting their weight off of square - so they can't sit down or stand up.

              Comment


              • #27
                I think I would chat with your veterinarian about pain management prior to doing the dental work as well as some exercises you could do to help with the TMJ issues prior to the dental work.

                It sounds like your mare is going to be a candidate for frequent floating until things settle down in there. Like up to every 4 mos doing touch ups until the muscle memory has adapted to correct dentition rather than pulling everything out of whack. I had a horse like that. Took 4 floats in 1 year before she started staying more consistent.

                I too would consider hauling her to the clinic if they have a good set of stocks. But I think I'd investigate the pain angle first.
                A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Toothgrinder View Post
                  . . . Perhaps something could be learned from the old fashioned approach? . . .
                  Nobody seems to have time to learn that nowadays.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Maybe try a different vet/equine dentist. Sometimes a different person will position things a little differently and that position doesn't bother the horse.
                    I think the pain management prior to the visit is a good idea.

                    A friend had a horse in her late 20's that had some TMJ issues. The equine dentist filed the front teeth. His explanation was that the molars had worn down and the front teeth were still fairly long. The long front teeth prevented the molars from connecting well to chew. Therefore the mare had to do all kinds of gyrations with the jaw to chew and then would get TMJ pain.
                    Vet tranqued horse, front teeth filed, no more funky chewing, no more jaw pain.
                    I don't know if this is a normal floating option or what, just that it seemed to work for this horse. The vet must have been on board with it since he was there to tranq the mare.
                    Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      ^SonnyMom, as was explained to me by my dentist, and fully competent dentist always does the incisors as needed...that shoud be a normal part of floating. My poor mare had some huuuuge wedges on her incisors, that were causing all kinds of problems. You could see and feel how much her TMJ opened up after he was done, it was amazing.
                      "On the back of a horse I felt whole, complete, connected to that vital place in the center of me...and the chaos within me found balance."

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        It sounds to me like there is probably significant pain in there. I'd probabably go ahead and have the vet drop her so dealing with whatever painful issue is hidden in there doesn't traumatize her further. Once she is fixed up, start working on other solutions for next time, and get her on a short schedule so there isn't ever a lot of work to do.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Ainsley688 View Post
                          ^SonnyMom, as was explained to me by my dentist, and fully competent dentist always does the incisors as needed...that shoud be a normal part of floating. My poor mare had some huuuuge wedges on her incisors, that were causing all kinds of problems. You could see and feel how much her TMJ opened up after he was done, it was amazing.
                          Incisor adjustments for horses is similiar to an urban legend. Although it's basis lies in fantasy, it keeps getting passed along. There is no credible research into the procedure and when it does appear in the literature it's usually to warn the reader against its use. I'll bet many more horses have been harmed by incisor reduction than have ever been helped. So how do you "see and feel a TMJ open up"?
                          http://www.traditionalequinedentistry.com/

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            As much as you don't want to do it, if this was my horse I would knock her out for dental procedures like that. As long as the vet can still do the work with her flat out of course. Much less stressful on all involved.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Our vet says that if a horse gets upset before the drugs kick it, there is some chemical released that keeps the drugs from binding to the proper receptors in the brain. That means sedation is not effective and pony is awake. I don't know the science of it, just what i have been told and seen, a vet could probably explain it way better. For my mare we have to be sneaky and make sure she doesn't see the vets truck or see/smell the farrier or his work. The vet walks in and gives the shot real quick before she can think or it doesn't work. If we fool her, it works very well and she will be out of it and very calm. Suppose your horse could be the same way, could a vet she doesn't know or a tech give the sedation before she could realize the vet is there and what is going to happen?

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Ainsley688 View Post
                                Have you had a chiro or massage therapist come out? If you KNOW she had bad TMJ pain, I would work on getting that as loosened up as possible before working on her mouth. Coming from somebody who has a tendency to get a painful TMJ, it REALLY REALLY hurts to open and keep your mouth open.

                                I would give her some pain meds to help relax and loosen up the TMJ, and keep her on them for a while before the dentist comes out.
                                This x 1000. From what you've described OP, it sounds like the actual floating isn't the problem, but the keeping her mouth open. Like Ainsley said, when you have TMJ issues opening your mouth and keeping it open are extremely painful. Pain reactions and anticipation of pain can cause a horse to blow through sedation pretty quick. It's possible that the horse sees the vet start setting up for a dental and gets anxious because she associates that with pain.

                                Has your vet tried pre-meding with valium? Most of the horses my SO sees in his practice are just fine with the powerfloat under minimum sedation, but there are a few horses that have various issues from previous injury, abuse, or neglect. You can only give a horse so much sedative safely, and for the super anxious ones get to a point very quickly where they are at max sedation and still completely with it and fighting. Those horses get lots of wither scratches, maybe a treat, a quick injection of valium, and more petting and scratches. After a few minutes the valium kicks in and the horse is nice and relaxed. Normal sedation can then be used and the horse doesn't have the anxiety reaction and blow through the sedative. Also, if her issues are in her TMJ, valium is a muscle relaxer and can help loosen the jaw muscles around the joint which will prevent some of the associated pain.
                                It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things.
                                Theodore Roosevelt

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Related to the TMJ/pain issue try using the speculum on a lower setting and not cranking her all the way open. My 25yr old gelding has been a real problem with dentals the past few years and like your mare needed enough meds to knock out an elephant. This past year I told my new vet about his history, she gave him a reasonable amount of meds and then set the speculum on a moderate setting and I was astounded at how well he did. For years he had been a nightmare to float and I felt awful that we hadn't figured this out sooner.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                                    IMO a well made set of stocks has adjustable padded straps over and under at the girth and flank, behind the buttocks, and forward of the shoulder. 'nuther words the horse could pick up all 4 feet and still be supported as with a sling, AND the horse is prevented from shifting their weight off of square - so they can't sit down or stand up.
                                    I stand corrected Tom, the stocks at the clinic where I worked had no safety straps. The bars could each be swung away to release a horse if needed.

                                    The stocks at the new vet that I use does have safety straps.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by SLW View Post
                                      I stand corrected Tom . . .
                                      Well if you're correctly strapped to a welded steel frame that way, you really have no choice but to stand correct.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                                        IMO a well made set of stocks has adjustable padded straps over and under at the girth and flank, behind the buttocks, and forward of the shoulder. 'nuther words the horse could pick up all 4 feet and still be supported as with a sling, AND the horse is prevented from shifting their weight off of square - so they can't sit down or stand up.
                                        Wow, what a concept! Stocks that are safe and usable!! Tom, that is a winner idea.

                                        My old Vet from when I was a kid, had such stocks, didn't really use much in tranquilizers. Horse would struggle when the strapping was on, found it didn't change anything and quit fighting. Of course there were a few exceptions, some who just liked to fight for ANY reason, so he did tranq them.

                                        My young mare had real "attitude" in all settings, and at home you just couldn't hold, tie or "make" her stand and behave. Putting her in the stocks for dental work took care of the problem. Wide 12" strap across the back, another under the belly, and she couldn't do anything about leaving. She learned to stand quietly in the stocks, get her mouth worked on and got to be pretty good about it. When I moved away from being able to use him, she had progressed to standing with her rump in the stall corner and having teeth done that way. Needed the corner so she couldn't back away, but no fighting at all.

                                        This was floating done with hand tools. We are still having horses done with hand tools, willing to pay extra for it. We have seen some horredous damage done using the power tools on horse teeth. There is no "putting enamel back on" tool when the power user is done. Also heat damage done to teeth, from the high speeds of the power tools. Seen quite a few teeth killed by cooking the soft tissues by grinding and overheating them. Yeah, these WERE done by DVM qualified folks, Dental Specialists!

                                        If I had a really bad horse for teeth, I would find a set of stocks as Tom described, try to get a meeting set up with a Tooth Person using hand tools. See how she did with that. Might have to just do a bit of work, over several sessions, as she learned to stand in the stocks. Yeah, could be a bit expensive, but might aid in re-training her mind about being worked on.

                                        My horses get their mouths fooled with from foals on. The Horse Dentist handles them during their visits, so foal and growing young horse understands what is going to happen during the process. All of our horses stand quietly in the aisle, wear speculums, get worked on with NO medication. Don't need it with the hand tools. We have used various dental folks, horses are good for all of them because of training and no power tools. Horse accepts being uncomfortable, process is not PAINFUL, so he can manage it. We think of it as something they need to know, like standing well for trims or shoeing, so you have to work with them on it.

                                        My old horse who started tooth work badly, also seemed immune to the tranq. She would fight and get worked up anyway, they had almost no effect. She had some badly cut legs while young, tried the tranq to sew her up, didn't work. Learned how to wrap wounds very well! So we just went with the restraint method, in using the stocks for the teeth work. No tranq at all. Good thing she wasn't a large horse, with her no-quit attitude fighting her would have been really dangerous! She did FINALLY mature, quit arging about things, turn into a very nice animal I had until she died of old age.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          If you vet has tried all the options with drugs, including presedating and all the other little tricks that are used, then you may want to just lay the horse down. I'm certain the horse could be hand floated but really what is the point if you are not going to do it right. It would be very extreme to lay a horse down for this but obviously teeth need to be done and of course in a situation like this you want them checked out and done well so that the horse isn't in pain. Sometimes you just need to do what you need to do to get a job done correctly.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X