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Shannon Peters pulling her horses shoes

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  • #41
    Education, sadly, has little to do with emotion, which is often how many horse care decisions are made.
    Click here before you buy.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by J-Lu View Post
      I found it to be a good article, but I also agree that one has to work with the individual horse. Horses living and working on sand will need shoes. Horses living and working on loamier soil won't. Quarter cracks aren't a sign of neglect. Creative shoeing that keeps a horse *sound* without drugs isn't evil. I hope that readers of the article have the smarts to see it for what it is: A GP-level rider found a solution for her particular horses.
      J-Lu, I'm curious why a horse on sand would need shoes. I grew up in central Texas, with sandy loam soils and most of the time my horses were barefoot and did fine, so I get the loam comment. But what about sand?

      I now live in Colorado and the ground here is HARD. The dryer it is, the harder it gets, too. Nevertheless, my horse usually goes barefoot through the winter. I don't worry about him developing snowballs in his feet and teetering around on them. (That is, IF we get snow...) He's still in full training and will get shoes again in the spring.

      This strategy usually works well for him, though last winter the ground was so hard and so dry, he got sore-footed and went back into shoes earlier than I'd have liked.

      Comment


      • #43
        I guess I interpreted the article differently.
        I read it that you don't *have* to have shoes to reach the highest levels of Dressage. [I want to kick ass in the dressage ring, but my horse, sadly, will not be barefoot any time soon.]

        Also, they mentioned that Ravel's quarter crack stemmed from an injury when he was young.

        Coincidentally, my horse vet/dentist was out today and his name is also "Gargiulo", but not any relation to the farriers in the article.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #44
          I own 3 horses. Two are barefoot and one is shod. I really do not understand the passion both for and against both bare feet and shod. My daughter rides dressage where the vast majority of riders/trainers (actually of all disciplines) we know are all shoes, all the time.

          At the suggestion of our farrier, I decided to pull the shoes on my daughter's horse during the winter a couple of years ago. This farrier had been doing the horse's feet during the year and a half or so that my daughter had been riding him. My daughter's trainer was very upset with my decision. When I asked her why she felt our horse needed shoes, she responded quite emphatically that he NEEDED SUPPORT! I asked why or where his hoof needed additional support but she couldn't answer; just repeated quite emphatically that he needed support. The only explanation that I can come up with is that she kept all her horses in shoes on all 4 feet because that's what she had always done and that's what her trainers had always done. I did end up putting shoes back on this particular horse for tworeasons; one, he drags his toes and wears the front wall down badly if unshod, and two, because he works primarily on sand 5 to 6 days a week which wears the walls down too much.

          This horse is a 20 year old dressage schoolmaster. Recent x-rays found that he has a slight rotation of both P3s with some remodeling at the tip from years and years of trims/shoes from farriers with very good reputations for knowing what they are doing while the horse was with other owners. I would love to see this horse try boots for 5 or 6 months to see if the hoof would fix itself faster than we can get there in shoes but my daughter worries that this would hurt him.

          I really do not understand the passion behind those who are anti-barefoot nor those who are anti-shoe. Why can't we evaluate each horse's feet for the best plan of care? Why such blanket negative opinions of keeping horses barefoot? Why do I get shouted at by horse professionals that I am "just STUPID" with no reasons or rationale just because I do the best I can to take the best care of my horses that I can. You don't have to agree with me, but you should have a reason why you disapprove so vehemently. And, yes, both I and a good friend in the same barn have been shouted at that we are both "just STUPID" because we do things differently than most in our barn.

          Do we really need to be so negative? Science, including equine science, is uncovering new information every day. What we thought was the best thing to do is often discovered not to be. Why not take advantage of the research on the anatomy of horses' feet and how the structures all work together?

          Why worry that all the dressage riders are going to pull their horses shoes just because Shannon Peters did? I'm sure that most won't. Of those that do, don't you think they will be able to tell how their horse does without shoes and put them back on if the horse doesn't do well barefoot?
          "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp

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          • #45
            I dont get it, either, and I am a barefoot trimmer. I do a lot of casting and I do a very little bit of shoeing. I also have a farrier who shoes one of my horses when he needs it, he is tricky.

            Clearly I am much more passionate about adequate turnout LOL
            "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
            ---
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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            • #46
              The most puzzling aspect of these barefoot vs shoes discussions is the polarization by groups this is a yes or no opinion with very little consideration to each horse's individual needs. It's like asking how much should I feed my horse? The answer is multifactorial.

              It seems to me very few horse owners know the difference between high quality , average or even incompetent farrier work and the affects they have on the overall health, soundness & performance. A good farrier is more than just a service provider. He/she should be an integral partner on your team. Their experience is invaluable in detecting emerging issues, on why a horse is reluctant to canter on one lead, what can be done & why a horse might be repeatedly grab one shoe, & heading off future soundness with proper farrier care.

              Of all the statements I have read where it is stated "my horses are just so much better barefoot than when they are shod", the critical question of: Do I truly have a competent farrier is never addressed. The important part to remember is shoes exaggerate the quality of a farrier's work both good & bad.

              Comment


              • #47
                The most puzzling aspect of these barefoot vs shoes discussions is the polarization by groups this is a yes or no opinion with very little consideration to each horse's individual needs. It's like asking how much should I feed my horse? The answer is multifactorial.
                See, I see a MAJORITY of responses on these threads as being in the "whatever suits the horse" line of thinking. Very little edge-of-the-bell-curve polarity other than a scant few, the way I see it, other than barefoot tending to be more of a "philosophy" in extreme cases. There are people who seem convinced that all horses can be barefoot, but I personally have never met anyone who is convinced that NO horses can be barefoot.
                Click here before you buy.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by ptownevt View Post
                  I really do not understand the passion behind those who are anti-barefoot nor those who are anti-shoe. Why can't we evaluate each horse's feet for the best plan of care? Why such blanket negative opinions of keeping horses barefoot?
                  I read the thread to be far more as Delta describes below. The vast majority are not stomping their feet for one extreme or the other.

                  Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                  See, I see a MAJORITY of responses on these threads as being in the "whatever suits the horse" line of thinking. Very little edge-of-the-bell-curve polarity other than a scant few, the way I see it, other than barefoot tending to be more of a "philosophy" in extreme cases. There are people who seem convinced that all horses can be barefoot, but I personally have never met anyone who is convinced that NO horses can be barefoot.
                  Exactly.
                  What is best for this particular horse to do its job with the feet it has.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Maybe Shannon, et al are looking to save money and time?

                    Maybe the next step to broaden their horizons is parelli, or going bitless, or going treeless?

                    With just a barefoot trim, they are going to save big bucks on their farm bill.

                    Hopefully no horse gets injured permanently. But all are insured I would guess.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by BoyleHeightsKid View Post
                      Quarter cracks that are not caused by injury or poor conformation are caused by an inbalance in the foot. An inbalance usually caused by poor management on the owners part or an incompetant farrier.
                      A "false quarter" crack results from a permanent injury to the coronary band or sensitive lamina. Either the horn produced by the injured section of the coronary band is no longer adequate due to scar tissue, or the connection between the sensitive and insensitive lamina is disrupted due to scar tissue.

                      A "true quarter crack" results from shearing forces in the quarters due to conformation issues. The challenge is maintaining a correct hoof capsule orientation in all dimensions when that capsule is subject to extreme asymmetry in axial loading from a crooked limb - a sheered heel is often involved. But, IMEs, this is something that is "allowed to happen."

                      http://www.equipodiatry.com/article_sh_qc.htm

                      Though very often a competent farrier may be involved in managing with "correct farriery" after the fact, IMO, a true quarter crack does not "happen spontaneously" on a competent farrier's watch. It happens when a farrier doesn't see it coming, doesn't recognize the signs, and doesn't consider the mechanics of the individual limb.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by equine08 View Post
                        The most puzzling aspect of these barefoot vs shoes discussions is the polarization by groups this is a yes or no opinion with very little consideration to each horse's individual needs.
                        Rarely, if ever, will you hear/see a professional farrier say that all horses should/must be shod. OTOH, it has been fairly routine to hear/see members of the Sweetness & Light Brigade of the BUA [lunacy] group say/preach that "all horses should be barefoot/no horse ever needs shoes, period, end of discussion."

                        It is only recently that several of those of the barefoot hoof care persuasion have begun to acknowledge that in truth, "It Depends". From my own unique perspective, this has been a heartening development.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by ptownevt View Post
                          This horse is a 20 year old dressage schoolmaster. Recent x-rays found that he has a slight rotation of both P3s with some remodeling at the tip from years and years of trims/shoes from farriers with very good reputations for knowing what they are doing while the horse was with other owners.
                          Please immediately substantiate your claim regarding the hoof care provided by said farriers.
                          Otherwise, you owe them and us a public apology for making a false and defamatory statement.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by ptownevt View Post
                            . . .
                            This horse is a 20 year old dressage schoolmaster. Recent x-rays found that he has a slight rotation of both P3s with some remodeling at the tip from years and years of trims/shoes from farriers with very good reputations for knowing what they are doing while the horse was with other owners.
                            Without radiographs from previous years for baseline comparison, that is a rather bold and IGNORANT SUPPOSITION?

                            I've see this sort of thing (rotation and bone resorption) and have also had radiographs from previous records (because some owners actually do get radiographs for pre-purchase or baseline data in order to protect their investment) and on baseline comparison there was no pathology in previous years. What should I make of that data?

                            And when such pathology occurs in a short time, like 30 days between subsequent radiographs, what should I make of that?

                            And what should I make of the SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE on bone remodeling where the cycle can be from 30 days to 200 days or more?

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              For the last 3 years my farrier has been at me to take the shoes off of my horse for a break. Minimum of at least a cycle but 3 months was ideal. I was like no way. They'll be too sore. To be fair I needed to sort some things diet wise. I don't feed high startch foods but I made some changes to feed and grazing. Took shoes off and been pleasantly surprised. Not now due to weather, but I was road hacking and building up the foot slowly. The flat thin soled horses are no more. And we did pour ins and at one stage one was heading for wedges. I keep iron to a minimum in feeds and mineral balance. I have easy keepers that are grass sensitive. They graze at night in spring and summer. But I'm not saying it's permanent. For now everyone is doing great. They aren't limping or suffering. My paddocks and fields have been near enough mud all year with our weather. So I did walking on harder surfaces too. My farrier has been great. I wasn't going the way of trimmers because I'm happy with everything he's done as are the horses. We've managed to help the horses build stronger feet in the worst weather year possible. And if and when I need the shoes again I have the best man for the job.

                              People always go on about crap feet but you know years and years ago horses didn't stay shod all year long no matter what work they did. They all got breaks. This was something my farrier was trying to explain to me when I wouldn't listen. You can have a combination of both. But look it, I'm a nobody so take what I say with a grain of salt.

                              Terri
                              COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                              "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                I thought the article was interesting, and a counter to what is usually heard in dressage -- that when the horse gets to a certain level, it MUST be shod. The article presents the case of one of Shannon Peters' horses, for whom getting rid of the shoes and doing a good barefoot trim was a last-ditch effort to deal with soundness issues, and it worked.

                                It's also clear that they're being pretty careful, and "ZOMG RAVEL IS BAREFOOT" isn't really what happened in the lead-in to the Olympics. He was barefoot up front, but ridden in special boots.

                                The article mentions rear shoes being helpful for horses with stifle issues. Mine had/has rear suspensory, stifle, hock, SI issues and she is much happier shod. She's had some laminitic changes and likes her heel support and careful shoeing up front. I would *love* to have her barefoot but she's shown me, over the years, that she needs shoes when she's being ridden.

                                The farrier I use is very good -- he does barefoot or shod and always does a good trim. Sometimes I wonder if the real issue in some of these cases is the trim rather than the shoes, or lack thereof.
                                You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                                1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post
                                  To be fair I needed to sort some things diet wise. I don't feed high startch foods but I made some changes to feed and grazing.
                                  Terri
                                  This my dear is THE most important thing in taking a horse barefoot.

                                  THE most important thing.

                                  More important than importing a designer trimmer or anything.

                                  Did I mention HOW important that one change was?

                                  Second in line-though DARN close to first---road hacking building up the foot slowly.

                                  You get 1 million gold stars and never have to say anything smart again

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by rmh_rider View Post
                                    Maybe Shannon, et al are looking to save money and time?

                                    Maybe the next step to broaden their horizons is parelli, or going bitless, or going treeless?

                                    With just a barefoot trim, they are going to save big bucks on their farm bill.

                                    Hopefully no horse gets injured permanently. But all are insured I would guess.
                                    Is this an attempt at a joke or do I really need the old rolly eyes icon back?

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Ptownevt, thanks for posting the article and please ignore the naysayers. You don't owe anyone an apology and don't be intimidated. I learned long ago not to waste my precious time here arguing with people who will never change their POV. I'ts obvious by a lot of the posts that some haven't even read the article but insist on pontificating.
                                      Yeah Akiko's trying to save some $$$ too.
                                      DH studied alongside our friend Sossity ( the trimmer in the article) for the 2 years Pete was giving clinics with Dr. Bowker and Katy Watts. We've found in our 8 years of running a very successful business, that IF the owner follows the protocol touched on in the article, has a really competent trimmer, that yes, it works. Cool too is that Garrett Ford won the 2012 Tevis Cup in his own product, the boot Soss used for Ravel, the Easy Boot Glove, a really great product. As Pete said: ''The hoof boot is the horseshoe of the 21st Century''. The Peters' farrier is now a self described ''convert''.
                                      www.owlcanyonhoofrehab.com.

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                                      • #59
                                        I love the way you punctuate your ignorance with certainty.

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                                        • #60
                                          I look forward to the day when trimmers actually use some critical thinking when observing the impact of boots on the heel bulbs and all of the soft structures in the back of the foot.

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