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Nutrition people...Calf Manna vs. Rice Bran

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  • Nutrition people...Calf Manna vs. Rice Bran

    as a fat supplement?

    My big TB is a medium keeper...he doesn't eat me out of house and home, but he does require a hefty helping of hay. We have put about 100lb on him in a couple of months, and we want to keep him at this weight while changing his muscling.

    He is currently getting 15lbs of Bermuda in the morning, and roughly 5lb Bermuda and 10lb of Orchard at night. This keeps him busy for a few hours. He is also getting 6lbs of Triple Crown senior and 2lbs of Calf Manna a day, broken into two feedings. He looks GREAT.

    The problem is, he's HOT. He went from being a bit lazy to being Mr. Piaffe under saddle...and we are definitely not at the piaffe level. I am not sure if he's just feeling a lot better now that he's healthier, or if the Calf Manna is a trigger. I started noticing a difference after adding the CM.

    I'm almost out of the CM and was wondering if I should keep him on it but knock it back to 1lb/day, or if rice bran would be a good substitute without making him so gung-ho.

    Advice?
    runnjump86 Instagram

    Horse Junkies United guest blogger

  • #2
    Have you considered using corn or vegetable oil instead?

    There are 1927 calories/cup in either corn or vegetable oil and you can safely give 2 cups of oil/day. I've used that for retired horses that are hard keepers that I don't want to give a lot of grain and have had a lot of luck with it.
    Sue

    I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying let's remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.

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    • #3
      It may not be the feed but the fact he's not skinny any more that is causing the issue. I have known many the calm, skinny horse that turned into a fireball when receiving adequate groceries. it is one reason I never evaluate temperament in a rescue horse...can't really tell what they are going to be like under saddle until they are fattened up.

      That said, I would definitely try 8 pounds TC Senior and ditch the CM/RB altogether. My fiesty TB stays quietest that way. I add a cup of Omega Horseshine a day when he is in heavy work.

      Comment


      • #4
        Rice Bran made my 33 year old ottb HOT! I'm talking almost unmanageable on the ground hot. He would pull me down the barn aisle, rear, gallop, get loose, and generally just go nuts. Took him off of it and he calmed down.

        I love triple crown senior for just about every horse that needs grain.
        Charlie Brown (1994 bay TB X gelding)
        White Star (2004 grey TB gelding)

        Mystical Moment, 1977-2010.

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        • #5
          Calf Manna is primarily a protein supplement, it's first ingredient being soy bean meal. Rice Bran is a fat supplement. Both could be responsible for your horse's exuberance. I recommend Platinum Performance. It is a well balanced supplement providing the accepted ratio of O-3 and O-6 fats from flax seed and rice ran as well as other ingredients.

          Also I find it much more difficult to put weight on a horse in winter.

          Comment


          • #6
            TC and Calf Manna can be part of your energy issue. I have found feeding Orchard hay and a ration balancer is all they really need.

            There are many great balancers depending on where you live. I am not a fan of Rice or Wheat bran. All nutritional courses I have taken do not recommend them to be fed. Not a TC fan either or calf manna.


            These are some great companies:
            Buckeye for grass hay
            Progressive Diet for grass hay
            Stam 30
            Pennfield

            If you find something Kentucky Equine Research (KER) formulates or supports that is excellent.

            I have never had issues with weight on horses.

            I think you need to remove the Bermuda... it's not a great hay and up your Orchard hay. In the summer you can add a little alfalfa.

            I think a large horse should eat 35 to 40 lbs of hay a day....
            Live in the sunshine.
            Swim in the sea.
            Drink the wild air.

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            • #7
              Some horses need more calories than hay + ration balancer can provide, especially in the winter.

              Have you tried simply removing the CM and upping the TC Senior to 8 lbs? I don't know how many calories are in CM, but rice bran has roughly 1200 per pound, while TC Senior has 1500ish. So you'd be getting more bang for your buck with the TC.

              As far as the hotness...could be a combo of more energy (since he's finally getting enough food) to the time year (cold) to less turnout? Does he get enough time out in the pasture?
              Caitlin
              *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
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              • #8
                Originally posted by RedMare01 View Post
                Some horses need more calories than hay + ration balancer can provide, especially in the winter.
                Never experienced the need for more calories not covered by hay and balancers.... Even with TB's.

                When the horse is "hot" feeding enough Orchard or Timothy hay will go a long way. I feel too many people just don't feed enough hay. And when a horse is getting proper nutrients from the balancers you will find the weight happens.

                If you need more calories that's where you can add alfalfa or even oats to the ration balancer. In the 20 years I have been using ration balancers I have never needed to add oats however.
                Live in the sunshine.
                Swim in the sea.
                Drink the wild air.

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                • #9
                  Whew doublestable, you feed 35-40 lbs of hay per day to ONE horse???

                  My horses stay in good weight (if not a little chunky this winter) on about 20-25lbs each per day.
                  Charlie Brown (1994 bay TB X gelding)
                  White Star (2004 grey TB gelding)

                  Mystical Moment, 1977-2010.

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                  • #10
                    Double S, I see you're in CA. Do you have hard winters where you are?
                    Caitlin
                    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RedMare01 View Post
                      Double S, I see you're in CA. Do you have hard winters where you are?
                      Can get below 20 here.. but were pretty mild. Saying that; a lot of the research and formulation KER does is in the colder areas of the world. It's worth checking out... this diet has worked for many I know and some are in fact in cooler areas than I.

                      But - - horses are fun and you just never know what they are up to. They are all individuals.
                      Live in the sunshine.
                      Swim in the sea.
                      Drink the wild air.

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                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
                        TC and Calf Manna can be part of your energy issue. I have found feeding Orchard hay and a ration balancer is all they really need.

                        There are many great balancers depending on where you live. I am not a fan of Rice or Wheat bran. All nutritional courses I have taken do not recommend them to be fed. Not a TC fan either or calf manna.


                        These are some great companies:
                        Buckeye for grass hay
                        Progressive Diet for grass hay
                        Stam 30
                        Pennfield

                        If you find something Kentucky Equine Research (KER) formulates or supports that is excellent.

                        I have never had issues with weight on horses.

                        I think you need to remove the Bermuda... it's not a great hay and up your Orchard hay. In the summer you can add a little alfalfa.

                        I think a large horse should eat 35 to 40 lbs of hay a day....
                        The Bermuda he is getting is high quality. And Pennfield doesn't ship to CA since last year, so....yeah. I am a fan of the Triple Crown grain. He was not hot on it before adding the CM, which is another supplement I've had success with in the past on other horses. However, the temps did start to drop right around the same time the CM was introduced. There is no way in hell I can afford to feed my horse 40lbs of hay a day, especially Orchard, and frankly he would look like a whale.

                        I love the KER Fiber Max, which is essentially their version of Pennfield's Fibergized, but my local stores don't carry it and I'm not driving the thirty minutes up a mountain to get it.

                        When he was on alfalfa (briefly) he was a total nutcase. There is no. way. I'm adding that to his diet. He was snorty, spooky, and a general as$ho!e on the ground, and under saddle was even worse.

                        Originally posted by RedMare01 View Post
                        Some horses need more calories than hay + ration balancer can provide, especially in the winter.

                        Have you tried simply removing the CM and upping the TC Senior to 8 lbs? I don't know how many calories are in CM, but rice bran has roughly 1200 per pound, while TC Senior has 1500ish. So you'd be getting more bang for your buck with the TC.

                        As far as the hotness...could be a combo of more energy (since he's finally getting enough food) to the time year (cold) to less turnout? Does he get enough time out in the pasture?
                        I am trying to stay as economical as possible while keeping him healthy. Don't get me wrong, the hotness is quite fun, but it was a shock. He definitely needs more calories than just a ration balancer would provide since he's A. Not getting 40lbs of hay and B. Not on pasture all day long. He gets turned out 2x a week, more if I can squeeze it in, and getting worked 4-5x a week. So the weather could definitely be a factor as well.


                        Like I said, we're happy with his weight now and are just looking at ways to maintain it. At this point we're going to do a wait and see what happens once I run out of the CM. If he calms down but maintains, great! If he starts to drop weight then we'll either put him back on it, or attempt a different avenue.
                        runnjump86 Instagram

                        Horse Junkies United guest blogger

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by runNjump86 View Post
                          The Bermuda he is getting is high quality. And Pennfield doesn't ship to CA since last year, so....yeah. I am a fan of the Triple Crown grain. He was not hot on it before adding the CM, which is another supplement I've had success with in the past on other horses. However, the temps did start to drop right around the same time the CM was introduced. There is no way in hell I can afford to feed my horse 40lbs of hay a day, especially Orchard, and frankly he would look like a whale.

                          I love the KER Fiber Max, which is essentially their version of Pennfield's Fibergized, but my local stores don't carry it and I'm not driving the thirty minutes up a mountain to get it.

                          When he was on alfalfa (briefly) he was a total nutcase. There is no. way. I'm adding that to his diet. He was snorty, spooky, and a general as$ho!e on the ground, and under saddle was even worse.
                          I know; I fed Pennfield and I too in Cali cannot get it. I found Stam 30 which seems to be going well so far. That's why I mentioned it depends on what area you live in.

                          If you are in Cali; the vets at the equine hospitals as well as most vets do not recommend you feed Bermuda. It is the number one cause of impaction colic here.

                          I read your post wrong I thought you were looking for weight gain - why I suggested feeding more hay... but if your good with the weight I would just add a ration balancer and remove the bermuda, the TC and Calf Manna.

                          Stam 30 is by a company called Hallway..

                          Here is their link http://hallwayfeeds.com/?our-feed-pr.../stamm-30.html

                          You could cut out all the TC and Calf Manna saving you money on that end.

                          I don't feed much alfalfa myself but I mentioned it because another poster talked about calories. If you need energy it's a great feed. I know most of the TB's I had would get very hot on alfalfa.

                          Good luck to you and I hope you find a solution....
                          Live in the sunshine.
                          Swim in the sea.
                          Drink the wild air.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AliCat518 View Post
                            Whew doublestable, you feed 35-40 lbs of hay per day to ONE horse???

                            My horses stay in good weight (if not a little chunky this winter) on about 20-25lbs each per day.

                            Depends on the horse. I do have an 18 hand 2000 lb horse that gets 35 lbs a day when in work. What I do for each horse is try to free feed grass hay (Orchard or Timothy) and if they are in work and not hot I feed 5 to 10 lbs of alfalfa. It really depends on the horse. If they are thin; then they need more hay. If they are fat they need less. You just have to figure out how many lbs each horse needs, how much work they are doing etc.

                            My comments were made in reference to weight. I believe horses that are too thin usually just need more hay not a bunch of molasses based feeds.
                            Live in the sunshine.
                            Swim in the sea.
                            Drink the wild air.

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                            • #15
                              My horses get free choice orchard/alf mix, all they can/will eat. 3 of the 4 are fine on a ration balancer-type but one still needs 8 pounds of TC Senior a day to stay in prime condition. Ration balancers are not a one-size-fits-all.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Having Tbs off the track I have a few questions.

                                1 Did you get him off the track and is he feeling better because you're nutrition is helping him put on weight and not keeping up with the work load?

                                2 Every Tb is different, but they are bred for high energy and it comes with the territory. . .

                                3 Some horses react to feeds, but I've found with what I do with mine it is not recommended to just feed hay and ration balancer. If you ask Leslie Law, David or even a BN rider going for the Regionals, they would tell you that they do not feed just good quality hay and ration balancer. If you're working your Tb, you may want to do more time working him and the increase in feed will be fine.

                                4 What does your instructor/vet say?

                                5 Try B1 crumbles they work for a lot of Tbs for calmness.

                                I would also like to know his background for example where did he come from, who had him before etc.
                                Last edited by Eventer55; Jan. 19, 2013, 09:54 AM.
                                RIP Kelly 1977-2007 "Wither thou goest, so shall I"

                                "To tilt when you should withdraw is Knightly too."

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                                • #17
                                  How much does your TB weigh? I usually go with 2% of body weight in hay (recommendations range from 1% to 2%.) My 18 y.o. TB gets 20 lbs of hay (timothy/orchard grass mix, half of it 1st cut, half 2nd cut) and a pound and a half of beet pulp and a pound of timothy alfalfa cubes. Total of close to 23 lbs of forage. He is in good weight. (About 1,100 lbs by weight tape.) 30 pounds of hay a day seems like a lot! This same TB (who is not in work at the moment) gets 1 lb of Blue Seal Strider (2.5% fat, 11% protein) and 1/2 lb Blue Seal Senior a day. Again, he is in fine weight. If he was working harder I might up his grain to keep his weight on. I do feed a cup of sunflower seeds a day, but am considering switching that to rice bran. I used to feed corn oil, but was told that that type of fat is not good for them.
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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
                                    My horses get free choice orchard/alf mix, all they can/will eat. 3 of the 4 are fine on a ration balancer-type but one still needs 8 pounds of TC Senior a day to stay in prime condition. Ration balancers are not a one-size-fits-all.

                                    If you contact Hallway (Pennfield, Buckeye, Progressive Nutrition, or KER) and discuss your horses situation they have many different feeds. The balancers are designed to be added to if necessary for different nutritional needs.

                                    And IMHO feeding TC if you want to feed Cane molasses and a lot more sugars. Nutritional studies and classes I have taken over the years do not support feeding TC. But those are just the studies and classes I have taken and vets I have talked to.

                                    If you look at TC and Calf Manna ingredients you find cane molasses number three and alfalfa number six on calf manna. These things it sounds like your horse really doesn't need. You may have to find a feed or balancer that is limited on the ingredients that can cause them to have too much energy.

                                    It's really worth checking out. Here is a quick article on balancers.

                                    http://www.horsefeedblog.com/2011/01...ion-balancers/

                                    I learned so much when I had young horses and their nutritional needs. It was a real eye opener for me. I am just surprised not too many people know about or feed balancers.

                                    I had a young horse with wobblers and another with epitisitus (bought them both from breeders with it) and nutrition - ration balancers worked amazing....
                                    Last edited by doublesstable; Jan. 14, 2013, 02:41 PM.
                                    Live in the sunshine.
                                    Swim in the sea.
                                    Drink the wild air.

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                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      I've used balancers in the past on my air fern Arab/QH and had good results. However, that will not work with my TB. He needs more calories than what hay and a balancer will provide.

                                      Trainer was the one who suggested rice bran, hence the start of the thread. She is the one who put him on 30lbs of hay per day as well because he needed to put weight on when he first got to her property. Last time we weight taped him he was right around 1250lbs. He's a big guy and is usually mistaken for a WB.

                                      He has not been on the track in years. I've had him under my care for several months and we've been going back and forth on feeds since day one, trying to find one that works without having to pump 10lbs of grain in him. I am well aware that TB's are bred for high energy; this particular guy has been super laid back since I first met him, so the hotness has been a shock. We may have to up his work load while cutting back on feed. I'm going to suggest we cut back on his hay intake as well to 25lbs and see what happens. I fed my Arab/QH B1 crumbles last year and didn't see a difference. Like I said I don't mind the hotness (most of the time). I just want to keep him healthy and hopefully have his brain resurface.
                                      runnjump86 Instagram

                                      Horse Junkies United guest blogger

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                                      • #20
                                        TC feeds may have molasses in them, but the overall sugar/NSC percentage in most of them is quite low:
                                        http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/artic...rown-horsefood

                                        Notice that the Senior is 11.7%, which is very low for a concentrated feed. In fact, less than 2% higher than the ration balancer, TC 30 (9.8%NSC).

                                        Don't get me wrong, I also love ration balancers. I use one in the summer for my mare. But it simply will not work for us in the winter. Not on a 19 year old mare + cold temps + no grass. She gets pretty much all the hay (plus alfalfa pellets with meals) that she wants, but last year I tried to stay with the balancer and I had a skinny, skinny mare by the end of January, even adding several pounds of oats along with alfalfa pellets. And BTW, the NSC of the balancer + oats is way more than the <12% in TC Senior.
                                        Caitlin
                                        *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                                        http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

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