• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

NEED ADVICE! Sudden and worsening lameness. Farrier says not abscess!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Original Poster

    #21
    Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
    Those studies have been debunked repeatedly.

    Actually there are impact and load studies done in vivo with hoof mounted accelerometers that show quite the opposite.
    Would LOVE to see that. Are they in a book? Will purchase immediately! If online, can you send me a link?

    I want what is best for my horse. I do not care about dogmas or camps or rants. I absolutely understand that what works for some horses doesn't work for others. I want to make the best, most informed decision I can for my guy, based on research (often contradictory : /), professional opinion, anecdotal evidence from other horse owners like myself, and, of course, from my horse himself.

    I agree that there is compelling research in BOTH camps in this case, hence why it is such a volatile debate. If there was one obvious answer, no one would be passionately arguing about this. At the end of the day, the research for barefoot was slightly more compelling, so I decided to try it. I have been explicit, though, about my horse's comfort and welfare trumping any ideals or values about being barefoot.

    However, I do not want to abandon an experiment in less than a month if time is truly a factor that will make a difference. One thing my farrier said that stuck with me was, "The barefoot people will tolerate a surprising amount of lameness." He's not okay with that, nor am I (nor is my horse!). He is both a certified farrier and barefoot trimmer. He does both, depending on the horse's needs. Anyways, I'd love to see any facts and studies debunking the benefits I cited above. I will remain a student of the horse, and a student of my horse.

    Comment


    • #22
      I call troll.

      Comment


      • #23
        Call the vet. The horse may have laminitis.

        Comment


        • #24
          I am confused. Your horse is lame. Your farrier saw your horse lame but then you tell us that your farrier and you are not willing to tolerating lameness for the sake of going barefoot.
          That does not compute. At all.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by jhoover View Post
            Would LOVE to see that. Are they in a book? Will purchase immediately! If online, can you send me a link?
            Contact Dr. Jeffrey Thomason at the Ontario Veterinary College.

            http://www.ovc.uoguelph.ca/biom/faculty/jthomaso.shtml

            Ask him about his studies done with hoof mounted accelerometers. Also ask about his finite element analysis studies.

            He presented his material several years ago at the International Hoof Care Summit in Cincinnati, OH. I bought him dinner and got into some excellent discussions on biomechanics, then later participated in a round table discussion he moderated on the same topics.

            It was refreshing to see hard scientific data (in vivo measurements) backing up the biomechanical theories, geometry and math, that some of the great minds in the business (Duckett, Rooney) put out there decades ago, but never had the technology and funding to prove.

            It is very difficult for anyone that doesn't have a mechanical engineering AND material science background to grasp the mechanics of equine locomotion.

            Most hoof care practitioners adopt various theories because they put faith in the person who is promoting the theory, NOT because they understand the theory and can argue the technical merits using math and vector diagrams.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
              Most hoof care practitioners adopt various theories because they put faith in the person who is promoting the theory, NOT because they understand the theory and can argue the technical merits using math and vector diagrams.

              Oh, pooh--gratuitous chest-thumping.

              I can't do a ladder diagram nor understand EKG vector analysis without sitting down and giving myself a headache and spending a couple of hours reviewing the math and theory (by which time any patient relying on me to do this quickly would be quite dead) but I do know what to shock and what to NOT shock.
              Click here before you buy.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by jhoover View Post
                . . . He is both a certified farrier and barefoot trimmer.
                Ya know that is redundant and superfluous? Like saying your dentist both a dentist and a dental hygienist.

                A farrier cannot get certified without passing the trimming part of the test as a prerequisite to the shoeing part of the test.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                  Oh, pooh--gratuitous chest-thumping.

                  I can't do a ladder diagram nor understand EKG vector analysis without sitting down and giving myself a headache and spending a couple of hours reviewing the math and theory
                  So you have admitted that under set the conditions you CAN do it. Likely at some point you had to jump through those hoops as a prerequisite to changing your first name to Doctor.

                  (by which time any patient relying on me to do this quickly would be quite dead) but I do know what to shock and what to NOT shock.
                  Having a license to do that is evidence enough for the state to let you hang a shingle. Imagine how it would be if somebody could just call herself a doctor and as long as they could "sell people" on their theories and had followers promoting their ideas on the internet . . .

                  Click here before you buy - right back atcha.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I would recommend having the vet look at your horse to get his opinion on your horse's hooves. If your farrier can be there as well, that would be ideal as this will allow all parties to discuss the best options for your horse and his specific needs/issues.

                    Hoof issues are a real pain (both for you and your horse)! My OTTB has problem feet. He has been worked on by three different vets, four farriers (all with very good reputations). It took a long time to find the right shoeing/trimming combination for him and he still abscesses in wet weather. When I first got him and his hoof issues reared their ugly head, I had one vet and one farrier completely miss a deep abscess which started a downward spiral. During the worst of his issues, the vet pulled his shoes. Within 5 days, I literally begged him to let me put shoes back on my horse. My horse will never be without shoes again while I own him, but that doesn't mean I think barefoot isn't a valid option for other horses.

                    Sometimes, despite all we do to be proactive and knowledgeable before a problem occurs, lessons have to be learned through experience. Don't beat yourself up. It sounds like you are very proactive with looking after your horse and keeping his best interest in mind. Would love to hear how everything works out.

                    Best wishes!

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      I recently pulled my horse's front shoes. In the past before I owned him he was 100% sound and ridden without shoes so I know he can be fine barefoot. The vet and farrier have both commented without me asking that he has great feet. He was sore on both fronts for over a month. It takes time for their hooves to strengthen since previously they were protected by the shoe. As each day went by he got better and better. Any person I know who has pulled front shoes off a horse that has worn them for a period of time has had their horse's feet be sore initially. You aren't being cruel by not sticking shoes right back on them. Now if months down the road he is still sore on his feet then I would consider shoes again. Some horses just don't have good enough hooves to be barefoot, my last horse a TB had horrible hooves and I would have never considered pulling his shoes. After pulling my current horse's shoes he was still running around his field and acting like himself even though he hoof tested slightly sore in both front feet I just gave him time off from riding. You can use products such as durasole or keratex to help toughen up his feet more quickly. You do also have to keep in mind their hooves grow slowly it can take an entire year to grow out a full hoof.

                      I would still suspect a bruise or abcess for your horse's sudden lameness. About 4 weeks after pulling his front shoes my guy became lame in his hind left. It presented like a bruise or abcess and didn't go away in a week so I had the vet out. He didn't hooftest in that hind left foot but after a full lameness exam the vet decided it was a deep stone bruise in that hoof. A week and a half later he was fine.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I think that the OP should not discount laminitis as another poster mentioned. A friend of mine just went through this with her mare, and as things progressed, they finally discovered 16 degrees of rotation with rads once she insisted on them. The vet kept saying it was just bruising. I believe she has since moved on to another vet.
                        "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Support for OP

                          OP:
                          I think you are doing a terrific job responding to the pressure on the board, so I am not sure you need my support. But I thought I would share my experience.

                          Last year I pulled my horse's (OTTB) front shoes (he is barefoot behind) for the winter on my farrier's recommendation. His feet improved a lot over the winter. They got harder and had a better shape. They also grew more hoof than before.

                          I did put shoes on again this spring because I needed studs for cross-country. I pulled them again for this winter.

                          Ymmv,
                          PKN

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            There are no health advantages when it hurts your horse to do it. I used to always front shoe my horses and then pulled them for winter and they never had a transition period. If you are riding somewhere other than your well groomed arena ( or turn him out) since his shoes were pulled I would guess he has an abscess brewing.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by stargzng386 View Post
                              I recently pulled my horse's front shoes. In the past before I owned him he was 100% sound and ridden without shoes so I know he can be fine barefoot. The vet and farrier have both commented without me asking that he has great feet. He was sore on both fronts for over a month.
                              Considering that the average foot grows 1/4" to 3/8" in a month it may be that is why it took a month. When I pull shoes to leave a horse barefoot, I pull the shoes and trot the horse out in the pasture, use hoof testers, and if the horse is sound, I don't trim any length from the foot or take my knife to the sole, just round up the edges and roll the toe. So the transition is instantaneous. Either the horse is sound for its intended job when I pull the shoes, or it goes back in shoes.

                              But I do cheat by using Durasole to harden the sole and white line. Sometimes a little chemistry can make a big difference, sometimes it can't.

                              It takes time for their hooves to strengthen since previously they were protected by the shoe.
                              That hasn't been the case in my practice. I have a lot of horses that go in and out of shoes based on where or how the owner plans to use the horse. They may wear shoes for one cycle just to go on a trail ride where the ground is rocky, and then the next cycle, pull the shoes and still ride the same day on soft ground.

                              Shoes on for fox hunting season, shoes off for summer trail riding on the beach. Shoes on for driving show season, shoes off for hacking trails. There is no "waiting" for the feet to get stronger to ride. Either the horn is tough enough for the intended terrain and use or it isn't. And I run about 90% barefoot in my practice - barefoot backyard trail horses are my bread and butter.

                              As each day went by he got better and better. Any person I know who has pulled front shoes off a horse that has worn them for a period of time has had their horse's feet be sore initially.
                              Well now you can say you know of a person that has had thousands of horses come out of shoes and not be sore. And if they are, I come back the next day and shoe the horse for free. (Actually had to do that 3 times in the last 12 years. So there's PROOF that I have imperfect judgement.)

                              You aren't being cruel by not sticking shoes right back on them.
                              Neither am I being cruel by immediately returning to the scene of the crime and putting the shoes back on for free if I'm the one that decided the horse could go barefoot and I was wrong.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Have you tried putting boots on and see if it helps? It might help the transition.

                                I had a TB once and took his shoes off, it took him a while to transition. He was the only one that took a while. I used boots with him off and on until his feet toughened up, and eventually he could walk on pretty much anything without a problem. But it took a while. All my other horses have been barefoot since I got them.

                                I know this is comparing apples to oranges, but... after my own experience switching from (human) shoes to 'barefoot' shoes, like Vibrams, etc, I would prefer my horses shoeless. I had back pain, orthotics, all kinds of problems that disappeared after two days in barefoot shoes and they're all I wear now. My feet can now do their job and the pain is gone. I can't imagine it's different with horses. Even at disneyland, they have transitioned the horses to barefoot and they walk on asphalt pulling a carriage full of people.

                                I know shoes have a purpose and I would use them on my horses if they needed them for some reason, but so far I have no reason to put shoes on my horses.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by pal-o-mino View Post
                                  I know this is comparing apples to oranges, but... after my own experience switching from (human) shoes to 'barefoot' shoes, like Vibrams, etc, I would prefer my horses shoeless. I had back pain, orthotics, all kinds of problems that disappeared after two days in barefoot shoes and they're all I wear now. My feet can now do their job and the pain is gone.
                                  To use your comparison - you clearly do not have any foot problems that make it extremely painful for you to walk barefoot. Some people do. If I was forced to be barefoot (which I have always preferred for myself until my feet decided I couldn't anymore) I would not be able to walk most of the time.

                                  Good thing my doctor is not a barefoot trimmer type who insists I just work thru the pain until my feet get used to it.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    walk on asphalt pulling a carriage
                                    Not the worst environment for hooves, all things considered. Asphalt is hard but not uneven, the horses (IME) just plod along and stand around a lot, and we really don't know how many of them are tried before the ones that can "make the cut" are selected for this job.
                                    Click here before you buy.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                      Not the worst environment for hooves, all things considered. Asphalt is hard but not uneven, the horses (IME) just plod along and stand around a lot, and we really don't know how many of them are tried before the ones that can "make the cut" are selected for this job.
                                      Yes!

                                      I would guess that is more of a case that they said 'ok we are going barefoot, all horses working here need to be barefoot' so horses that could be barefoot was chosen for the job. Not a case where they took all the horses working there and transitioned them to barefoot.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                                        Yes!

                                        I would guess that is more of a case that they said 'ok we are going barefoot, all horses working here need to be barefoot' so horses that could be barefoot was chosen for the job. Not a case where they took all the horses working there and transitioned them to barefoot.
                                        I'm pretty sure disney looks at more qualities than if the horse is sound barefoot. We asked them about it when we noticed and the driver said the ones that could go barefoot now do, but I haven't seen one in shoes for a while.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by pal-o-mino View Post
                                          I can't imagine it's different with horses.
                                          Really?

                                          I can't imagine how it could be even infinitesimally similar.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X