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Another feed thread, sorry guys!

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  • #21
    I am very interested in this thread as having similar issues with my mare. Enormous amounts of food, labs normal, being treated for ulcers and still on the lean side... Please keep us posted!
    www.facebook.com/lusitanos4sale

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    • Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by Simkie View Post
      Have you had a comprehensive fecal run on her? I wonder if she's perhaps got a large worm load that is resistant to the dewormers you're using.

      It is curious! That much feed should be enough. Is she on any oil? Perhaps she preparing to grow again?

      How are her teeth? When was the last time she saw the dentist?

      What bloodwork has been run?
      Did a fecal back in December, clean as can be. I did hit her with Quest in January after I double dosed strongid in December. I did a weeks worth of psyllium as well.

      She's been on oil as well, a 3-4 oz in each feeding. She had her teeth done in August, I am hoping to get her redone once the weather warms up.

      We did a normal CBC and BMP (not sure what you call it in horses) all of which were completely normal, haven't tested for lymes, EPM or anything of the like.

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      • Original Poster

        #23
        Originally posted by SCMSL View Post
        I am very interested in this thread as having similar issues with my mare. Enormous amounts of food, labs normal, being treated for ulcers and still on the lean side... Please keep us posted!
        Certainly! It is very frustrating, if you find anything out with your girl, please keep me posted as well!

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        • #24
          If you suspect hind-gut ulcers, try KER's Equishure. I think it's the only product designed to treat HGUs.

          I do know someone who is very knowledgable about equine nutrition who said he treated his mare's hind-gut ulcers with fish oil, vitamin e, flax oil, and double-dose omeprazole, but I would talk to your vet before doing the double dose.
          Topline Leather -- Bespoke, handwoven browbands & accessories customized with Swarovski crystals, gemstones, & glass seed beads. The original crystal braid & crystal spike browbands!

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          • #25
            It certainly sounds like you've covered everything. Can't imagine how frustrating it is to see her still lose weight.

            FWIW, I feel like I've had better luck with Panacur Power Paks than Quest for encysted strongyles. I use Quest in rotation, but still power pak every other year or so and I swear it makes a difference. Maybe power paking her would be useful?

            When you do worm her, are you giving her one tube, or more to account for her size?

            Is she a hard core cribber? Does she wear a collar, and (if so) is it effective?

            Is she blanketed?

            How about trying a good quality probiotic?

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            • Original Poster

              #26
              Originally posted by Simkie View Post
              It certainly sounds like you've covered everything. Can't imagine how frustrating it is to see her still lose weight.

              FWIW, I feel like I've had better luck with Panacur Power Paks than Quest for encysted strongyles. I use Quest in rotation, but still power pak every other year or so and I swear it makes a difference. Maybe power paking her would be useful?

              When you do worm her, are you giving her one tube, or more to account for her size?

              Is she a hard core cribber? Does she wear a collar, and (if so) is it effective?

              Is she blanketed?

              How about trying a good quality probiotic?
              Power packing was next on my list. I gave her 1200 lbs worth of wormer, she's quite ribby and gangly despite her height, not much heart girth so to speak. I suppose I could go with 1.5 tubes, with the Quest I was afraid to overdose, but the other types I'm not as worried.

              She cribs quite a bit, but not to the point that it interferes with eating. If there's food, she'll be eating it. I've had 3 different collars on that haven't worked, plus painting all available surfaces with bitter substances of varying kinds. I did have her blanketed, but she shredded her last blanket many times over, I gave up on it. I just ordered a new one, fingers crossed it'll last.

              I did try yeast for a few weeks, but she ended up colicking again, so I took her off everything and just went with the poprocks.

              BTW, thanks for your help! Any bit of info is appreciated. Vet is stumped and I'm getting towards my wits end with this.

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              • Original Poster

                #27
                Well, thought I'd update.
                The mare is still quite thin, but not as "emaciated" looking as before. I am hoping with the grass coming in, things will sort themselves out.

                She is still getting 10lbs of TCS, 10lbs of Alfalfa pellets, free choice hay, and started 3lbs of rice bran a day with 2 cups oil. I've had 2 vets look at her, her teeth done again, she's been on a stomach buffer, poprocks, u-guard, probios, and I did get a vit e/selenium shot for her too, not all at once, but in succession. Wormed for tapes, strangles, etc and so forth.

                Her coat is slick and shiny, she looks happy, and her hooves are better than when I bought her. Both vets say not to worry about the weight anymore, they said I probably just bought myself a dinosaur of a horse. She grew 3 inches this winter. Her ribs and spine still stick out some, and it still really bothers me, but I don't think more food will fix it.

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                • #28
                  Egads! I just saw this thread. I'm glad your gal seems to be looking better. I'm doing a similar dance with a 4-year old Westfalen. I'm sure you don't want any more advice and you don't want to change anything, but I'll throw this out there anyway. (sorry!)

                  I suggest adding alfalfa hay. The compressed bales can be found in many feed stores and are often really good quality (i live in NC and get Colorado compressed alfalfa). I wrap them in a sheet and put them in my car. It's my understanding that hay is better than the pellets because you can easily see the quality of the alfalfa in the bale, but not the pellet - and anything can go into the pellet. The staff can throw even one flake a night to your horse.

                  You have her on a stomach buffer, omeprazole and U-guard, each of which decreases the pH of the stomach. Alfalfa also has a high cation content and buffering capacity, and you're feeding pellets. This seems a bit much. Keep in mind that over-buffering and raising the pH of the stomach can be detrimental to the digestive process - there's a reason horses need a low pH in the stomach. Food not properly broken down can cause issues for the enzymatic and protozoal digestion that occurs in the rest of the gut. Could overbuffering have contributed to the colic? If you are giving a proper dose of the omeprazole, I'd cut the other supplements until after she's off of them.

                  Consider cutting down to 1 or 1 1/2 cups and adding omega 3 and 6 supplements (fish oil or the powders). I also like beet pulp. If your barn doesn't want to deal with the hassle, you can measure out the beet pulp in baggies, give them an empty quart bottle, and see if they'll just add water to teh bag in the morning and feed the baggie in the evening. That makes it easy.

                  If you are growing a Giantess, well, you may just have a string bean until she's 5 or so! And I'd rather have a horse that big have less weight while growing than more weight.

                  Good luck!

                  Originally posted by r.j.246 View Post
                  Well, thought I'd update.
                  The mare is still quite thin, but not as "emaciated" looking as before. I am hoping with the grass coming in, things will sort themselves out.

                  She is still getting 10lbs of TCS, 10lbs of Alfalfa pellets, free choice hay, and started 3lbs of rice bran a day with 2 cups oil. I've had 2 vets look at her, her teeth done again, she's been on a stomach buffer, poprocks, u-guard, probios, and I did get a vit e/selenium shot for her too, not all at once, but in succession. Wormed for tapes, strangles, etc and so forth.

                  Her coat is slick and shiny, she looks happy, and her hooves are better than when I bought her. Both vets say not to worry about the weight anymore, they said I probably just bought myself a dinosaur of a horse. She grew 3 inches this winter. Her ribs and spine still stick out some, and it still really bothers me, but I don't think more food will fix it.
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                  • #29
                    Hey r.j!

                    I thought I should mention mine is doing better as well.

                    First I took her off beetpulp, per vets advice. He thought the beet might be interfering with the hind gut pH. I don't really think that's possible, but I saw a slight improvement on her mood.

                    Then I added bicarb. This was the big one! It only took a few days for her poos to go from smelly cow to almost average. I was amazed, and I swear I am never taking her off of it!

                    Then I changed her to a minimal NSC diet (total starch and sugar goes below 6%, which I think is amazing).

                    Finally, for unrelated issues, I couldn't ride her for almost two weeks, so she was just turned out and hand walked. When I came back to the yard, she was a different horse.

                    I am very happy for my girl and hope your horsie gets well soon too!
                    www.facebook.com/lusitanos4sale

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                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by J-Lu View Post
                      You have her on a stomach buffer, omeprazole and U-guard, each of which decreases the pH of the stomach. Alfalfa also has a high cation content and buffering capacity, and you're feeding pellets. This seems a bit much. Keep in mind that over-buffering and raising the pH of the stomach can be detrimental to the digestive process - there's a reason horses need a low pH in the stomach. Food not properly broken down can cause issues for the enzymatic and protozoal digestion that occurs in the rest of the gut. Could overbuffering have contributed to the colic? If you are giving a proper dose of the omeprazole, I'd cut the other supplements until after she's off of them.
                      Thanks for the advice! The first incidences of colic preceded the supplements/medications, I've been battling this since last fall. I did one thing a month, starting from October with the buffer, just now finishing up a month on U-gard and Probios, think I'll be doing a med/supp break from now on, other than adding oil. I'd love to add alfalfa hay, but have been having trouble finding enough. Not to mention the $$, I pay for full board, but if I don't feed what they feed (sweet feed) or want extras like hay pellets, it's all out of my pocket. She plows through 150-200 lbs of feed and hay pellets every 2 weeks.

                      Oh and no soaking of feed, I guess it's too time consuming and messy.

                      Sadly enough with the weather being out of sorts, she actually looks better than some of the horses I board with right now.
                      Last edited by r.j.246; Apr. 23, 2013, 02:46 AM. Reason: read post wrong, oops!

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Originally posted by SCMSL View Post
                        Hey r.j!

                        I thought I should mention mine is doing better as well.

                        First I took her off beetpulp, per vets advice. He thought the beet might be interfering with the hind gut pH. I don't really think that's possible, but I saw a slight improvement on her mood.

                        Then I added bicarb. This was the big one! It only took a few days for her poos to go from smelly cow to almost average. I was amazed, and I swear I am never taking her off of it!

                        Then I changed her to a minimal NSC diet (total starch and sugar goes below 6%, which I think is amazing).

                        Finally, for unrelated issues, I couldn't ride her for almost two weeks, so she was just turned out and hand walked. When I came back to the yard, she was a different horse.

                        I am very happy for my girl and hope your horsie gets well soon too!
                        Glad to hear miss mare is doing well for you! Am hoping with the grass starting to come in that she'll plump right up.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          When she is out on the round bale, is she out with other horses? Since she is young, she's probably down on the pecking order and may not be getting her fair share.

                          You might consider Pro VM w/EFAs as a "total" supplement. It has the right ratios of needed minerals, vitamins, etc. and has Omegas and joint supplements. You might only need it for 6 months or so.

                          I have always fed alfalfa hay cubes to my horses so that they know to chew them and not gobble down - in fact, it's what I use for "treats". If you take a hammer to alfalfa cubes and bust them up, (I do it in a rubber feed pan and sometimes while they are still in the bag they come in), you can make them small enough so you don't have to worry about choke. They would be easier for her to eat than pellets.

                          One more possibility is to use Purina's Amplify ... it's a HIGHLY concentrated pellet that you feed small amounts of. You might have to compare it cost wise with the TC Complete - but again, fiber & forage should be the first choice for any horse, which the TC complete or senior would provide.
                          The cost comparison would be hay cubes with Amplify or hay cubes with the Pro VM w/EFAs.

                          Good Luck. My friends warmblood was a stringy colt until about age 5. He's over 17 hands now at age 8 or 9.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Not exactly the best person to comment since my two year old looks like a scrawny yearling (although her ribs are mostly covered!)...but a general comment about triple crown senior....

                            I tried switching my horses to it last year in an attempt to make my Tb's look a bit better and because of the high NSC of my previous feed. All my horses dropped a TON of weight and really looked like crap, plus I was feeding an insane amount. I feed free choice Timothy/Orchard hay, and they are out 24/7 other then inclement weather.

                            I ended up switching back to my old pelleted feed, then once their weight was back up, I switched to the Legends performance pellets. They did have a dip in weight again (I believe going from a 28% NSC to a 12.9% and something about the gut bacteria was to blame) and now they look better then ever!

                            So..if the triple crown senior isn't working for her...you might consider trying a different feed? I'm starting to experiment with the ADM feeds as well since its a lower volume and supposed to be better for their guts. I have a boarder that feeds it (provides her own feed) and her gelding is really looking great. My one mare was diagnosed with ulcers so I have gradually switched her to their senior glow to cut down on her concentrates....bit too soon to see how she does though! Right now I just have her and my 2 year old (one the junior glo), the others are still on the legends.

                            The ADM has a max serving of like, 6 lbs, so its good for horses whose tummies don't feel well.

                            Also, do you keep a collar on your mare? I sometimes find with my cribbers that they will hang out and crib vs. eating and getting fat, and just keeping a collar on will help with their weight.

                            I also feed alfalfa pellets, soaked.


                            *** all "switches" have been done gradually over the last year, so nothing abrupt.

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