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Ulcer Woes...again...

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  • #61
    Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
    Well, theoretically the drug is the same, yes.

    I'm certain its ulcers. Same symptoms as last year, I'm just better at catching them sooner (hindsight and such...)
    No theories involved with this one. It is the same.
    McDowell Racing Stables

    Home Away From Home

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    • Original Poster

      #62
      Well, it is the same if one puts faith in Abler that it really is omeprazole, yes.

      Nobody has any tests to prove that all granules received from Abler are 100% omeprazole, and nobody on here has scoped, discovered ulcers, treated strictly wtih the Abprazole, and rescoped to determine the ulcers were healed.
      "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

      Comment


      • #63
        Nobody has done any tests or scoped before and after treatment ever? Nobody?
        McDowell Racing Stables

        Home Away From Home

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        • Original Poster

          #64
          Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
          Nobody has done any tests or scoped before and after treatment ever? Nobody?
          I am referring to your statement that the Abprazole granules are the same ingredient as UlcerGard (i.e. omeprazole).

          Of course there are people who have scoped before and after treatment. I am talking SPECIFICALLY about treatment with Abprazole instead of UlcerGard or GastroGard. I said I bought the granules and hoped they worked so I didn't waste my money. You said its the same ingredient in there as UlcerGard. Technically yes, its supposed to be omeprazole, but who on COTH has PROVED that the granules are omeprazole???
          "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #65
            Or who has confirmed ulcers with a scope, treated ONLY with Abprazole granules, and rescoped to prove they healed the ulcers as intended?
            "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
              However, I still think she is too "alert" even with other horses with her...all winter she is with my gelding, but if she sees something moving in the distance, she stops what she is doing (even eating) to walk "closer" and watch, and watch.....

              Any thoughts on trying a calming supplement to see if taking the edge off helps as an ulcer preventative?

              I am sorry.
              You really seem to be having an ordeal with your mare. As someone who has never had a horse with ulcers I can't offer any words of wisdom there, just my sympathy. As a horse owner for the last 36 years, I always wonder if all the different supplements ( calming, balancers, gut, all the joint things, etc..) that are fed today in abundance are contributing to the huge rise in ulcers , as well as the huge amount of processed feeds a lot of horses are on as well. What does aloe juice do??

              Horses are pretty " alert" in general and my 3 never miss a thing going on outside their small field and I will find them all staring at something off in the distance I can't even see. This isn't a need of yet another supplement unless she gets so worked up it is abnormal.

              Could it be that the additives you give her contribute to her stomach issues when the grass is gone ??

              EDIT TO ADD: I am not knocking anyone's feeding program. I am old school and just saying that feeding practices have changed dramatically in the years I have owned horses. Ulcers in my day were almost unheard of and nowhere near to what they are today. Just makes me wonder.

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              • Original Poster

                #67
                Originally posted by candyappy View Post
                ...As a horse owner for the last 36 years, I always wonder if all the different supplements ( calming, balancers, gut, all the joint things, etc..) that are fed today in abundance are contributing to the huge rise in ulcers , as well as the huge amount of processed feeds a lot of horses are on as well. What does aloe juice do?
                I agree that the plethora of supplements dont' help, especially when the supplement companies make it seem like your horse can't live without them. Aloe juice (supposedly) can help with healing properties in the gut. Kind of like putting aloe on a burn. I don't have her on any supplements right now, the calming supplement is only an idea that I haven't tried yet.


                Could it be that the additives you give her contribute to her stomach issues when the grass is gone ??

                EDIT TO ADD: I am not knocking anyone's feeding program. I am old school and just saying that feeding practices have changed dramatically in the years I have owned horses. Ulcers in my day were almost unheard of and nowhere near to what they are today. Just makes me wonder.
                Everything she is getting now she got all summer long (except the TC 30% ration balancer, which I started this fall, and that is low in starch). She gets alfalfa cubes, flax, hay stretcher and those are all pretty harmless as far as "gut problems."

                I also don't like to feed a high grain diet...natural is how I like to keep it, or as close to that as possible.

                I really can't do anything more in ways of "management" for her to improve her odds: 24/7 turnout on grass so forage is avialable all the time, I trailered her only once over the summer and used ulcergard the day before, day of, and day after. She doesn't get concentrated feed. She has hay available almost free choice in the winter (maybe an hour they go without before the next feeding). She lives like a horse should live, and still ends up getting ulcers again.
                "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #68
                  Originally posted by candyappy View Post
                  Horses are pretty " alert" in general and my 3 never miss a thing going on outside their small field and I will find them all staring at something off in the distance I can't even see. This isn't a need of yet another supplement unless she gets so worked up it is abnormal.
                  My mare will leave her feed (hay or grain) to walk away and stare at something moving who-knows-where and will do this regularly, even when she's grazing.

                  She isn't on any supplements right now, so the calming supplement would be to try to take away the edginess of being a nervous nelly. Again, she isn't on it, I was just wondering if anyone had thoughts on a calming supplement to make her "less nervous" and therefore, less apt to get ulcers again.
                  "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I always got the impression you were a proponent of pop rocks and that you've been using them from time to time all along. Now you're not sure if they work?

                    I heartily agree with the "one change at a time" philosophy of supplementation, but when the number of supplements starts outnumbering the number of things we actually FEED, it's time, perhaps for a housecleaning.

                    There are all manner of things that are "supposed" to help with this or that malady, but precious few that have good evidence. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, and some of this because it "can't hurt" is a good way to waste money. IMO this especially includes "calming supplements" since if a horse is not "calm" by temperament there is nothing on God's green earth that's going to change that.
                    Click here before you buy.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      SFH, if you're not sure the pop rocks really works, you could always try the compounded omeprazole/ranitadine paste from Precision Pharmacy. It's what my vet recommends. She has scoped, confirmed ulcers, treated with the paste for 30 days, rescoped and confirmed complete healing.

                      Haven't gotten my bill yet, but she said cost was about $250 for 30 days of treatment (2.2 g omeprazole/day) dose.

                      I can give you more details about the product to pass on to your vet if you would like. It is RX.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #71
                        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                        I always got the impression you were a proponent of pop rocks and that you've been using them from time to time all along. Now you're not sure if they work?
                        Correct on all accounts. Last spring (following her ulcer treatment with UlcerGard) I did order 100 packets of BPR. That spring, when I rode my gelding out the first time and left my mare home, that evening she was off feed slightly. Again the next morning. I gave her BPR in her next meal, and she was back on feed. Therefore, I figured it was the BPR that got her back on track. I have used them sporadically over the summer, but not regularly. I am wondering if using them non-regularly allowed her to develop new ulcers. I obviously think (or hope?) on some level that they work, or I wouldn't have just ordered 100 more packets. So yes, I have been a proponent of them, and do feel they work, although the fact still remains that none of us have confirmed FOR CERTAIN that they do (by scoping prior to and after treatment with them) or by testing them to prove its omeprazole under that enteric coating.


                        I heartily agree with the "one change at a time" philosophy of supplementation, but when the number of supplements starts outnumbering the number of things we actually FEED, it's time, perhaps for a housecleaning.
                        I agree. I don't like to feed supplements, but am not averse to trying certain ones. If I don't notice a change, I save my money.

                        There are all manner of things that are "supposed" to help with this or that malady, but precious few that have good evidence. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, and some of this because it "can't hurt" is a good way to waste money. IMO this especially includes "calming supplements" since if a horse is not "calm" by temperament there is nothing on God's green earth that's going to change that.
                        I thought a lot about what you posted prior regarding the alpha mare thing, and I agree that in this case especially, a supplement isn't going to change her hard wiring.

                        I am going to try the RiteTrac supplement, however. There seems to be a lot of positive response for others who are using this supplement.

                        Currently, I am going to treat her for 28 days with BPR, and put her on Rite Trac. Keep everything else the same (feed, turnout, etc). IF the BPR don't work, I'll treat with UlcerGard (hoping this isn't the case).

                        This summer, she'll have a buddy 24/7 (boarding a friends horse who never gets ridden to stay with her while my gelding is gone).

                        Next fall/winter, if this crops up again ever after never being left alone and being on RiteTrac all summer long, I'll reconsider where I am going to go with this.
                        "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I like KER in general and think the Rite Trac product sounds pretty reasonable, as 'gut supplements' go.
                          Click here before you buy.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                            I like KER in general and think the Rite Trac product sounds pretty reasonable, as 'gut supplements' go.
                            This statement, coming from you, makes me feel better at least trying this supplement!
                            "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              It's as glowing as I can manage for this type of product! Mostly it's the Equi-Shure component I've thought was a pretty decent product. I *hate hate hate* that they call the rest of it a "proprietary blend" because IMO that is disingenuous and misleading, to not list what's in a product, in this day and age.
                              Click here before you buy.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #75
                                Yeah, I am kind of annoyed that they at least don't list ingredients. If it weren't for the rave reviews from users on here, I wouldn't think about spending the money.

                                The good news is that this morning, I witnessed my mare drink after breakfast so we're either staying steady with symptoms (i.e. she is drinking just not a lot), or she's on the uptake from the Ranitidine she's on. I am still treating for 28 days with BPR and will start her on the RiteTrac.
                                "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  My understanding is that it takes omeprazole 4-5 days to reduce the flow of acid. Ranitidine works on what's there, right away. Last time my mare started to crash I increased her BPR to 3 packets per day, from 1, and put her on ranitidine for 4 days. By late the third day she was getting to normal in terms of eating, drinking, etc.

                                  Also, one of your earlier posts said it's getting quite cold. Any way you can warm her water, at least a couple times a day? I add a 1-ounce plastic scoop of salt to my mare's mash. That's usually good for a couple of gallons of water when she finishes eating.

                                  YMMV and good luck with your mare.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #77
                                    Stryder - yep, her water is warm, I have a rubbermaid tank with the drain plug heater. Never frozen, always lukewarm. And she gets 1 tbsp of regular (non-iodized) table salt in each meal in hopes that it will help her drink more. Although, when she first started getting picky about feed this time around, I did stop the salt because I didn't want that irritating any ulcers that may have cropped up.

                                    I did see her drink this morning, and her flanks are not tucked up like they usually are when she's gone on a non-drinking binge. So, I think we're headed in the right direction...I hope...

                                    My BPR should be here this week if my credit card company didn't hold up the charge again...("suspicious charge" last time so to be proactive, I called my bank this time and told them to put it through as a legit charge...)
                                    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      I hope you're headed in the right direction, too.

                                      My opinion, FWIW, is that slightly salty water (and I mean slightly) would soothe ulcers. I base this on my own experience with flushing my gums after invasive dental work, and the soothing salinity of a neti pot on irritated membranes. A tablespoon or two in enough water to make a mash shouldn't be too much.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Have you considered bots as a cause or aggravating factor?

                                        The seasonal nature of the onset of her ulcers fits with the life cycle of the bot fly. They come around late summer/early fall and the "lucky" ones are gradually ingested and end up attached to the stomach lining, where they create ulcerations.

                                        http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/health/botfly-132.shtml

                                        I spent a good part of my day with a bot knife and a pair of reading glasses in what I hope to be the final round of removing bot eggs from one of my mares. The bot flies seem to love her, and she has long hair and the eggs are very are hard to find.

                                        I usually complete the bot-removal process > ivermectin treatment right after Halloween, but fly season this year was interminable (as in, we STILL have them).

                                        Just thought I would throw that out there.
                                        Last edited by LarkspurCO; Dec. 3, 2012, 02:45 PM.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post

                                          I spent a good part of my day with a bot knife and a pair of reading glasses in what I hope to be the final round of removing bot eggs from one of my mares. The bot flies seem to love her, and she has long hair and the eggs are very are hard to find.
                                          BLARGH. You have bots? I haven't ever seen more than one or two very rare eggs in 15 years of horse keeping in Colorado, and I am JUST FINE with that. They are so gross :P

                                          I've read that you can just wipe down the horse with a warm, wet rag, rather than picking them off with a bot knife. The warm water makes them hatch (just like a horse licking would) and apparently it's pretty simple to deal with the little wigglers--they just die in a few minutes, I guess. The egg will stay stuck on the leg, but it's been ... diffused, I suppose! The rag treatment is fast and easy, especially compared to using a bot knife to get them all.

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