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Ulcer Woes...again...

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  • #21
    This is an interesting read as well:
    http://www.montyroberts.com/wp-conte...hite-Paper.pdf


    Interesting, maybe, but not exactly scientific in spite of its trying to disguise itself as such.

    Any paper that has a statement like this in its summary:

    [SIZE=3]It will, by now, be clear to the veterinarian that both gastric and colonic ulcers in equines are better described as induced conditions rather than diseased states. The well-known "cure" is simply to turn a horse out to pasture for a few months. If the condition is reversible by simply allowing the animal to feed and digest naturally, it is equally clear that GI tract ulceration is an induced condition arising from modern husbandry.
    Ideally, we would revert to feeding practices of 100 years ago. Unfortunately, this is not practical or economical for most. Thus, we are forced to alternatives that will allow the horse to digest as close to natural as possible, and minimize the side-effects of modern feeding regimens.
    [/SIZE]

    Outs the author as not a scientist, strictly speaking, and probably someone with an agenda. Which is not to say some of the points made in the paper might be perfectly good ones, but there is NOTHING in that paper that makes a conclusion as sweeping as the one above a certain thing, to be stated with that sort of conviction. 100 years ago the horse was used in a completely different manner, and we have NO IDEA what the prevalence of ulcers may have been at that time. Horsekeeping was far from "ideal" back then.
    Click here before you buy.

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    • #22
      I am looking at this product as recommended by my vet. She's put her gelding on it, and it seems to have helped him:
      https://www.standardprocess.com/Prod...ine-GI-Support

      as well as a couple other geldings in our barn.

      It might help me wean my mare off the pop rocks, as I've left her on the preventive dose for about 18 months. We can't afford a relapse, and I'm doing all the management things I can.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
        Simkie, I thought of this as well. However, she is already getting 1000 IUs daily already from the TC 30% supplement.

        Perhaps I should try adding another 1000?
        Sure won't hurt. I'd give it a go, were I in your shoes! Perhaps your mare is having trouble processing or utilizing the vit E she does get in her old age, and just needs more? Or maybe the vit E in the TC 30% is the synthetic kind, which is poorly absorbed?

        I give my guys 2000 IUs, just to cover the bases.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          Originally posted by stryder View Post
          I am looking at this product as recommended by my vet. She's put her gelding on it, and it seems to have helped him:
          https://www.standardprocess.com/Prod...ine-GI-Support

          as well as a couple other geldings in our barn.

          It might help me wean my mare off the pop rocks, as I've left her on the preventive dose for about 18 months. We can't afford a relapse, and I'm doing all the management things I can.
          The ingredients resemble those in SmartGut.
          "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

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          • #25
            I'm sorry you're going through this. Sounds like you're between a rock and a hard place right now, so I'll throw this out there to you.
            My guy had big, bad ulcers which seemed to be secondary to delayed gastric emptying. (I know that's not your mare's problem). We did gastrogard then ranitidine, still had ulcers. More GG, more ranitidine, still ulcers. (He's still on the ranitidine and probably always will be).

            This horse has a fleet of vets, but I called one I used to know and asked for her thoughts.
            Vet: Whenever I hear of recurring ulcers I think of a bacterial component, helichobacter. It's rare but I put these horses on either metronidazole or doxy.
            Me: But doc, I have asked the interal medicine guys about helichobacter and they said no. It's too rare.
            Vet: Oh it's very rare, and so is what's going on with your horse.

            I'm spelling helichobacter wrong, aren't I? I did 30 days worth of metronidazole and the horse did improve, but there were other factors involved so who knows.
            The horse is doing very well, but we haven't re-scoped.

            Take this with a grain, or 50lb. salt block.
            Best of luck to you and your mare.

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            • Original Poster

              #26
              Yes, I am very frustrated and emotional over this because I obviously want her to feel better, and it kills me to see her turn away food and water (which she obviously needs!) when NOT EATING HAY is only going to make her ulcers worse.

              The thing is, if she was lame, or old, or both, I would simply say "this horse is as far in life as she can get. It's time"

              But I cannot justify euthanizing a 20 year old sound, fun, reliable, trustworthy horse because she has ulcers and they're expensive to treat.

              That being said, how long do you shell out expensive ulcer treatments before you say "I cannot afford to do this anymore?"

              I joke that my horses keep me broke, but I will not go without food to treat her for this umpteen times.

              Its more a vent now than anything (and seeking suggestions because I'm really at my wits end here) because I just cannot imagine euthanizing her, and she absolutely will not ever be sold, ever.
              T
              This sounds terrible, but a tiny part of me wished I could justify the euth because I cannot afford this cycle of ulcer treatments all the time.
              "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                All of these together? Or as individual supplements?

                I am not big on supplements, especially for ulcers. They lack actual research regarding their effectiveness and if I'm going to spend the money, it would make more sense to put it into UlcerGard.
                NO ...Not all of these together...I was giving you different options at different price points for a maintenance supplement long term so you don't have to keep doing gastroguard every year ...once you treat ulcers it's recommended to use a daily ulcer preventative supplement for maintenance...to prevent them from returning

                You could always add Horse Quencher to her water

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                • #28
                  My horse has ulcers this year as well. I'm going to put him on some Dynamite Miracle Clay and PGR.
                  The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                  H. Cate

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                  • #29
                    My recollection is that you haven't been open to using the BPR as a preventive. FWIW, it costs $1.49 per day. I can't do anything else that inexpensively, and KNOW that it's going to work. Yes, I'm not thrilled to leave her on the meds non-stop. But this time of year, the risks are too high not to. And preventing is a whole lot cheaper than treating.

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                    • #30
                      Great article about what one GP rider does for her horses. Best part is it is mostly whole foods and not that expensive. There are even links to the supplements she is suggesting.

                      http://lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm

                      Also, I love the Biostar whole food products. Yes they are more pricey, but they are fantastic.

                      Finally, before I ride, I give my horse a small scoop of alfalfa pellets with about 9 peppermint flavored Tums. This is a suggestions I picked up from the article above.

                      Best of luck to you.

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                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Originally posted by stryder View Post
                        My recollection is that you haven't been open to using the BPR as a preventive. FWIW, it costs $1.49 per day. I can't do anything else that inexpensively, and KNOW that it's going to work. Yes, I'm not thrilled to leave her on the meds non-stop. But this time of year, the risks are too high not to. And preventing is a whole lot cheaper than treating.
                        You're recollecting a different person. I started her on a preventative dose of the BPR late summer...and even on them, she started exhibiting the ulcery symptoms by fall. So, I'm not sure that I want to spend $175 on more, if they won't treat them properly. I think I'm going to give it a try though.
                        "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          Originally posted by MLD View Post
                          Great article about what one GP rider does for her horses. Best part is it is mostly whole foods and not that expensive. There are even links to the supplements she is suggesting.

                          http://lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm
                          I diagree with teh part of her article that gives 3 sources of omeprazole other than GG or UG paste.

                          Source One: You can get Omeprazole in a powder or paste from Precision Pharmacy . Your vet can call them at (877) 734-3338 or Fax at (661) 377-3334 or www.myprecisionpharmacy.com The powder comes with a 1.4 g scoop, so it would take two scoops for a full dose. Just sprinkle over your supplements or mixed with Mylanta and syringed into the mouth. This also a very good price if you can get your vet to call them. However, your vet may order it him/herself and add their cost to it. This is common. You do need a prescription. Maintenance would be 1/2 scoop per day. It has made a huge difference in my mare. (Please do not ask me the price as they have asked me not to disclose that information, but I will tell you it is a lot cheaper than the name brand.) They also make a paste with Omeprazole and Ranitidine mixed.
                          HOw is this powder not being degraded in the stomach? UG and GG paste have a buffering component, the pop rocks have an enteric coating. How does this unprotected powder get where it needs to go without some buffering component or coating???
                          "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                            I diagree with teh part of her article that gives 3 sources of omeprazole other than GG or UG paste.



                            HOw is this powder not being degraded in the stomach? UG and GG paste have a buffering component, the pop rocks have an enteric coating. How does this unprotected powder get where it needs to go without some buffering component or coating???
                            It might be worth contacting the pharmacy listed and asking them this question. Cynthia Collins, author, is a well respected rider and TD in California. It might be worth your time in finding out. Cynthia is also the type that would be open to discussing this with you.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              SFH, as someone who has given Merial a BOATLOAD of money, I hear you. It's too damned expensive to be doing all the time.

                              I'd really focus on figuring out why your girl is okay in the summer but bad in the winter. Obviously, I think the vit e angle is an interesting one and worth exploring.

                              I'd also look at what else is different. Is she stressed, perhaps, about WHERE she has to eat in the winter? Maybe spreading the hay out in piles in the field would be better, so she can "graze" where she wants? Maybe dry hay is a problem and soaking it would help? (What fun in the winter! :-/) What else happens in the winter...? The days get shorter--maybe keeping her under lights would help? (I think there was another poster here who's horse had problems with the short days, but was fine if kept under lights.) Is she drinking less because the water is colder? Is she missing out on good gut bacteria that lives on the grass in the summer--probiotics might help? Is she cold in the winter and stressing over that? Blanketing might help. Are you feeding any alfalfa? It can be helpful for ulcer cases.

                              I realize that's a whole lot to try, and maybe not even the tip of the iceberg. But since you have a period in time when she is fine and dandy, I think you're in a better place than someone who has a horse that's just ulcery. There IS a way to keep her belly happy without omeprazole--you just have to figure out how to make winter into summer for her.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                                You're recollecting a different person. I started her on a preventative dose of the BPR late summer...and even on them, she started exhibiting the ulcery symptoms by fall. So, I'm not sure that I want to spend $175 on more, if they won't treat them properly. I think I'm going to give it a try though.

                                Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood. You said you gave her something when she was trailered. I'm talking about every single day.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I'm going to suggest RiteTrack by KER, because it deals with gastric acid issues and hind gut issues (it contains EquiShure by KER). I have my guy on Equishure and it seems to be really helping. You could order a small container and see if you notice a difference or not?

                                  Jingles for your mare and hugs to you. I know how you feel - it SUCKS when your loved one isn't feeling well and can't tell you why. I really hope you find a solution

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    I actually just bought RiteTrac by KER as well. Three weeks in, he seems to feel better all around. I've treated with BPR 2x but will probably get him scoped in the next month or so for peace of mind. I just wanted to keep him comfortable in meantime and so far he looks good.
                                    A quick tutorial on interval training: Conditioning your horse for eventing

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                                    • #38
                                      In addition to vitamin e, you would have lower levels of vitamin c and d in winter, I think.

                                      If you feed more than the recommended dose of vitamin e (and vitamine d) -- how do you know it's not too much? As opposed to vitamin c, vitamins e and d are fat soluble and so an overdose is technically possible, right...?

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by geog272 View Post
                                        In addition to vitamin e, you would have lower levels of vitamin c and d in winter, I think.

                                        If you feed more than the recommended dose of vitamin e (and vitamine d) -- how do you know it's not too much? As opposed to vitamin c, vitamins e and d are fat soluble and so an overdose is technically possible, right...?
                                        You have to really TRY to OD a horse on Vitamin E. Supplementing an additional 1000 or 2000 IUs is not a threat. Frankly, supplementing 10,000 IUs isn't going to get you near OD.

                                        Vit D is present in hay and does not degrade much.

                                        Horses produce their own vit c, so a lack is rare, apparently.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          GastroMax3 or GastroAide Extra are over the counter Omeprazole supplements-Big Dees sell them

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