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Wearing toe of one shoe? VIDEO ADDED AND PHOTOS

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  • #21
    Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
    Means that it resembles the work of Thom Rosen, aka "TR2" (TR squared). It's his favorite package.
    Okay, color me impressed. Yep, it's his work. I've never heard of him referred to as "TR squared." IIRC (this was several years ago) these pictures are Blush's first or second set of steel after several cycles in Epona.

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    • #22
      Oh, sorry, TR2 is his company name. I only looked at the one photo, but those look exactly like the aluminum Morrison rollers that my horse is in. He does wear the crap out of the toes by the end of the shoeing cycle (then I drive 90 miles each way to get new ones).

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      • #23
        Ha. Yeah, it was about that distance for me, too. What we do for our horses, eh? He did get her going VERY well, though! (And yep, you're right...those are Al. I'd forgotten.) Is Thom still working out of the QH barn in Longmont?

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        • #24
          Didnt read the responses, but my WB does this. She paws a lot.

          Comment


          • #25
            If you horse is having other issues like you said he could be compensating more on that left front then you are aware of and thus wearing down the shoe more then the right front.

            I would get him looked at by the vet, do a lameness exam, get some x-rays, maybe look into some chiro and go from there.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by FineAlready View Post
              As for the "flare" - I think what you might be seeing is actually the edge of an "event ring." Long story, but he went from a place where he was rarely turned out to a place where he is out a lot. He has a lot of event rings from that. He gets them any time we move barns, but this time was really profound. I also took the one picture at an odd angle. If you look at the photo from the front of both feet, it doesn't look so flarey. To the extent there is some flare, I wonder if it is because he is loading that hoof funny.
              It might be weird camera angle, but it looks like the lower third of the LF flares in medially, and it appears that way in two of the photos. It also appears that the LF is more underrun than the right (?). My understanding is that this can lead to a toe-first landing, which could possibly explain the excess wear on that toe.

              But then again, I don't really have any expertise to back that up -- it's just a guess on my part.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                Okay, so, vet was out today. Of course he looked better on the lunge than he did yesterday. Anyway, vet still did not see any reason for him to be wearing that toe out. Third time he has been looked at for the toe wear, and by two different vets. No one can figure it out.

                As mentioned, yes, that left front IS more underslung than the right. He is high low, and the left is his "low" foot. He grazes with that one forward 100% of the time.

                In any event, he was not lame on the lunge. Perhaps very slightly reluctant to move out at first. He flexed fine on left front (fetlock, knee, shoulder). Slightly positive on right front knee, but not bad. Flexed painfully on left hock, and then "refused" further flexions. This is just him. If he has one painful flexion, he is done and even four people cannot hold him to get him flexed anywhere again.

                We x-rayed knees, which were normal. (yay!) Injected hocks (he was about 9 months out from prior injections, so it was getting to be about time). Tons of fluid from left lower hock joint, and fairly significant from right lower as well. No idea if this will change the shoe wear, but we will see. If he still seems funny at all, next step is neck x-rays.

                Vet thought his feet looked good (for him) and should be kept as they are.

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                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  Oh, and this horse is chiropracted regularly. Was last adjusted about a month and a week ago. The adjustment did not change anything about his shoe wear.

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                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                    The video clips do not let me see how the foot is coming to the ground. Way too far away, so useless for gait analysis.

                    Shoeing looks short in the heels.
                    Would you use a bigger shoe? Or...how does one shoe less "short" in the heels? I think I know what you mean, and this aspect was better in the keg shoes...but he was not as comfortable in the keg shoes.

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                    • #30
                      "feet looked good for what they are" isn't a good answer

                      There's plenty that can be done to get the feet in a more reasonable form.
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Originally posted by JB View Post
                        "feet looked good for what they are" isn't a good answer

                        There's plenty that can be done to get the feet in a more reasonable form.
                        To be fair, you don't know the horse or his feet. This vet does, and is an experienced lameness specialist/surgeon at one of the largest and best clinics in the area. The farrier was one of the first apprentices to the farrier in the area that is widely regarded as an absolute genius by farriers all around the U.S. I asked if anyone ever had experience with a horse wearing one shoe more than the other. I didn't really ask any of you to shoe the horse.

                        I'm interested in what Tom has to say because he is a farrier. If you are also a farrier, I might be interested in your opinion on his feet. Otherwise, not really. There is always room for improvement, and I've discussed with my vet certain things that can be done. But you cannot make every horse's feet perfect. You have to work with the horse's conformation, and you have to believe the horse when he tells you that one way is more comfortable than another. I'm guessing that if I posted a picture of him in the keg shoes, people would like them better. But the horse did not.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Is the horse landing toe first on that foot and perhaps flat on the other foot? That will wear the toe off a shoe.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Originally posted by Trinity3205 View Post
                            Is the horse landing toe first on that foot and perhaps flat on the other foot? That will wear the toe off a shoe.
                            That's what you would think, I agree! But, no, he's not. And does not appear to drag it either. We will see if the hock injections help.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              It sounds to me like the breakover of the shoe isn't in the right place for the hoof if you've eliminated everything else. From the pics, he is definitely short shod, meaning the heels of the shoe end too far towards his toe. Unless he's a habitual shoe puller, I would set the shoes back some if he were mine, just based on those couple pictures. If he's not dragging that toe or landing toe first, he may just be wearing the shoe because the breakover isn't as far back as he needs it to be.

                              I also don't like what looks like the flare visible from the front pictures, especially on the inside of the LF. It also looks like the farrier may be removing the heels, but leaving too much toe. It's hard to say with just the pictures and with the added disadvantage of two different colored hooves. Pictures can distort some things.

                              I have one with a low, flat hoof and an upright hoof. I got him at 17 months and was able to correct the issue somewhat with just weekly trimming since he was still growing, but now that he's 6.5, he still has that tendency. I've found I have to be careful to make sure I've removed enough toe on his long hoof, but not to go nuts with the heel, or it will get worse over a longer shoeing cycle. Keeping him on a short cycle does a lot for him. Some people say not to try to make the hooves even, and with some horses I'm sure you can't, but with him it does seem to help his gait. I'm not talking about anything drastic, as the soles are naturally pretty close to the same. It's his hoof walls that grow into funky shapes if left to their own devices. The low one will flare and grow tons of toe, the other will grow tons of heel and won't flare. I think his starts in the shoulders, but trimming him evenly and shoeing him evenly has helped everything for him.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Originally posted by Hampton Bay View Post
                                It sounds to me like the breakover of the shoe isn't in the right place for the hoof if you've eliminated everything else. From the pics, he is definitely short shod, meaning the heels of the shoe end too far towards his toe. Unless he's a habitual shoe puller, I would set the shoes back some if he were mine, just based on those couple pictures. If he's not dragging that toe or landing toe first, he may just be wearing the shoe because the breakover isn't as far back as he needs it to be.

                                I also don't like what looks like the flare visible from the front pictures, especially on the inside of the LF. It also looks like the farrier may be removing the heels, but leaving too much toe. It's hard to say with just the pictures and with the added disadvantage of two different colored hooves. Pictures can distort some things.

                                I have one with a low, flat hoof and an upright hoof. I got him at 17 months and was able to correct the issue somewhat with just weekly trimming since he was still growing, but now that he's 6.5, he still has that tendency. I've found I have to be careful to make sure I've removed enough toe on his long hoof, but not to go nuts with the heel, or it will get worse over a longer shoeing cycle. Keeping him on a short cycle does a lot for him. Some people say not to try to make the hooves even, and with some horses I'm sure you can't, but with him it does seem to help his gait. I'm not talking about anything drastic, as the soles are naturally pretty close to the same. It's his hoof walls that grow into funky shapes if left to their own devices. The low one will flare and grow tons of toe, the other will grow tons of heel and won't flare. I think his starts in the shoulders, but trimming him evenly and shoeing him evenly has helped everything for him.
                                He does occasionally pull shoes (moreso recently because he is getting more turnout than ever before, I think). When he has pulled a shoe it is ALWAYS the left front. He has never pulled any other shoe in the whole time I have had him.

                                I don't think the farrier takes off much (if any) heel when he is trimmed. What I think people are looking at as flare is the line that divides his "old hoof" from before I moved him to the present barn and his "new hoof." There is a somewhat sharp "fever line" type deviation there that does kind of come out further in the lower portion of the hoof. So I suppose it is "flare" in that sense, but I don't think it is a true flare in the way that people might be thinking. This has happened with him before (with different farriers) and the so-called "flare" always corrects itself once the hoof grows out past the event line.

                                I do agree that the back of the shoe could be further back, which is how it was in the keg shoes. But again, the horse was not as comfortable in those shoes (plus, he did pull that left one). The farrier does bring the breakover back on both fronts, I think the left front a bit more than the other. The vet did suggest that it could be brought back even further next time because the horse is obviously trying to create more breakover for himself. I think part of why the horse didn't like the keg shoes was that they didn't have a "rocker toe" type action like the natural balance shoes.

                                I have toyed with the idea of taking this horse barefoot in front. He went from shoes to barefoot on his hind feet back in May, and his hind feet look absolutely fantastic. Very healthy, larger, MUCH better heel growth than previously. The removal of the hind shoes also made him much more comfortable behind, and allowed us to go from 6 month interval hock and stifle injections to just now 9 months on hocks and ? on stifles (has been 7 months and have not redone them yet). The angles on his hind feet and legs just look better, and his hind end movement is much better. Anyway, I may get brave enough to pull those front shoes someday. If I do, I would imagine that his heel growth may improve substantially (or maybe get worse, I guess).

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  And, yes, you are right about the color difference making comparison of the hooves very difficult! It's incredibly frustrating. He has three white hooves and one black hoof - the optical illusion effect is really crazy with the fronts! It is a little easier if I oil his feet before taking pictures. The difference in color is not so stark, and the flash on the camera doesn't do so many weird things to them.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by FineAlready View Post
                                    He does occasionally pull shoes (moreso recently because he is getting more turnout than ever before, I think). When he has pulled a shoe it is ALWAYS the left front. He has never pulled any other shoe in the whole time I have had him.
                                    That long toe delays the breakover and allows more time for the LH to reach up and grab the shoe

                                    I don't think the farrier takes off much (if any) heel when he is trimmed.
                                    This is exactly why I made my last comment. "good for what it is" is not good enough in this case, and there's a lot that can be done to improve the hoof. I never implied it could or would be a perfect foot, but it CAN be improved.

                                    the BIGGEST mistake people make with these LTLH horses is "his heel is already too low, I can't/shouldn't take any off" and that's going to lead to status quo or a worsening of the issue. These low heels MUST be rasped so the move back and give the horse a base of support under his leg, not in front of it.

                                    What I think people are looking at as flare is the line that divides his "old hoof" from before I moved him to the present barn and his "new hoof." There is a somewhat sharp "fever line" type deviation there that does kind of come out further in the lower portion of the hoof. So I suppose it is "flare" in that sense, but I don't think it is a true flare in the way that people might be thinking. This has happened with him before (with different farriers) and the so-called "flare" always corrects itself once the hoof grows out past the event line.
                                    Until and unless the flare (and yes, it is exactly the flare that people are thinking of) is trimmed appropriately every single time, there will always be the delineation between new, correct growth, and older, flared growth.

                                    I do agree that the back of the shoe could be further back, which is how it was in the keg shoes. But again, the horse was not as comfortable in those shoes (plus, he did pull that left one).
                                    If something doesn't work in a given shoe, then either the "something" wasn't done right or that particular shoe doesn't suit that horse.

                                    The farrier does bring the breakover back on both fronts, I think the left front a bit more than the other. The vet did suggest that it could be brought back even further next time because the horse is obviously trying to create more breakover for himself.
                                    The vet is right in this thinking. The farrier can be brinking the BO back, but he can being it back too little each time, which means you'll never get the foot where it belongs, or the feet go too long between trims, which means you'll never get the foot where it belongs. The worse sin is to not bring it back far enough AND put the shoe at the end of the toe.

                                    I think part of why the horse didn't like the keg shoes was that they didn't have a "rocker toe" type action like the natural balance shoes.
                                    Many farriers have set regular keg shoes back where the toe belongs, even if they are not able to trim the to back where it belongs because it's too much, creating the same effect. Now, that doesn't mean that works for all horses, but it can and has been done very successfully that way

                                    I have toyed with the idea of taking this horse barefoot in front.
                                    Given the LTLH I think that would be a mistake

                                    He went from shoes to barefoot on his hind feet back in May, and his hind feet look absolutely fantastic. Very healthy, larger, MUCH better heel growth than previously.
                                    Hind feet generally stay in better shape than fronts, and I have seen more than a handful of horses with bare hind feet that are pretty good, and still craptastic front feet with pooly placed shoes. It's not a matter of shod vs bare, it's simply a matter of, for some reason, farriers/trimmers doing a better job of screwing up front feet

                                    The removal of the hind shoes also made him much more comfortable behind, and allowed us to go from 6 month interval hock and stifle injections to just now 9 months on hocks and ? on stifles (has been 7 months and have not redone them yet). The angles on his hind feet and legs just look better, and his hind end movement is much better.
                                    There are several possibilities for that, including poor shoe placement. It might be this particular horse just needs to wear his feet a certain way and shoes prevent that. But don't fall into a trap of thinking "his hind feet did so well, he should go bare in front too".

                                    Anyway, I may get brave enough to pull those front shoes someday. If I do, I would imagine that his heel growth may improve substantially (or maybe get worse, I guess).
                                    The heels need to be TRIMMED before they have a chance of growing properly. Until they are trimmed back, and regularly, new growth is just going to follow the forward, crushed growth of the old stuff and it's going to continue to get worse.
                                    ______________________________
                                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Maybe ask the farrier to try setting the NB shoe nack a bit more on the LF?

                                      Some horses go better barefoot. My mare was one who never did well in metal shoes, maybe due to the farrier, but over several different ones she still had a tripping problem. Taking her barefoot all but eliminated her tripping.

                                      If he can't go barefoot, you could try PolySteel shoes. IME they are the best of both worlds. They give protection from rocks, etc, but they let the horse dictate breakover more easily. And they seem to last forever. The do wear at the toe, but they seem to allow the horse to quickly wear away what he wants gone, without getting so thin like a metal shoe does.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by FineAlready View Post
                                        And, yes, you are right about the color difference making comparison of the hooves very difficult! It's incredibly frustrating. He has three white hooves and one black hoof - .

                                        Mine is like that. Im always over analyzing her hinds since she drags them. One is white, one is black. I was convinced she was wearing the right hind more than the other, told the farrier. He got out his tape measure and sure enough, same length!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          His heels are long, but they are growing in the wrong direction (forward rather than down) Pull the heels back, wedge him up appropriately and if the frog can handle it, add supplemental frog support. Rocker the toe all the way back to the back edge of the first nail hole or put him in a banana shoe(aka SAPAS: self-adjusting palmer angle shoe ). Might even want to consider that shoe in an egg bar configuration. As he is a shoe puller, fit the heels of the shoe back where they belong and then spoon them. eg: _/
                                          Last edited by Rick Burten; Nov. 16, 2012, 12:55 PM.

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