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Worming when stool sample shows zero worms?

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  • #41
    Ah, I see now you're way down in Fl. Tapes are definitely a 2x/year issue, and I'd bet bots are as well.

    If you ever run across a high enough FEC to warrant deworming then instead of waiting, give a dose of pyrantel pamoate a try and do another FEC 10 days later. If you find it does a good enough job, then you can use that in place of an ivermectin/moxidectin rotation and help save those chemicals.

    That would allow you to use a double dose of pyrantel pamoate for both strongyles AND tapeworms for a given deworming
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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    • #42
      I'm a lab tech who does FECs.

      The advice given here is great. Keep in mind that the best way to use FECs is to test every horse in the herd and get an idea of which horses are high strongyle shedders and which are low shedders. Then you can use that knowledge for pasture rotation purposes (not rotating the low shedders onto a field littered with eggs from the high shedders), manure spreading (only spreading stall waste from low shedders onto your pastures and composting the rest), and concentrating your strongyle dewormers on the high shedders while using the protocols outlined above for the low shedders.

      FECs don't offer much information about the parasitic dynamic at your barn if you're only testing one horse. At that point, it's just a snapshot of a small portion of the poop your horse produces every day.

      Feel free to ask questions. I also test for parasites in cats, dogs, and other animals.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by JB View Post
        Ah, I see now you're way down in Fl. Tapes are definitely a 2x/year issue, and I'd bet bots are as well.

        If you ever run across a high enough FEC to warrant deworming then instead of waiting, give a dose of pyrantel pamoate a try and do another FEC 10 days later. If you find it does a good enough job, then you can use that in place of an ivermectin/moxidectin rotation and help save those chemicals.

        That would allow you to use a double dose of pyrantel pamoate for both strongyles AND tapeworms for a given deworming
        Yes def twice a year. The last two years I have only had to do Equimax (quest plus when it was available... It wasnt for a while) as my two come back with negative fecals.

        Isn't it if it comes back with a >300 epg result, then you deworm? So you are saying to do the pp instead of the others.. I know a dd of the pp will get tapes but does it have to be a dd given at the same time or is waiting to retest and then act accordingly ok?
        ~~~~~~~~~

        Member of the ILMD[FN]HP Clique, The Florida Clique, OMGiH I loff my mares, and the Bareback Riders clique!

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        • #44
          200 is the point at which you start deworming

          You need a high enough FEC to do a FEC reduction test (FECRT) to see if pyrantel pamoate works on your farm. It might not, but it might. I had the opportunity to learn that it works pretty well on my farm, where fenbendazole does not. Both have high, widespread resistance issues, but there are still pockets where one or the other, or both, might work. You can't assume one does though, so you need a situation where you can test to see if it does.

          IF you have a high count and can use a single dose of pyrantel pamoate and see a large enough reduction, then you know you can use it for strongyles. At that point, finding it works, you'd wait another 4 weeks then do a double dose of it for the tapeworms.
          ______________________________
          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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          • #45
            And the vet said, if FEC comes back consistently negative, worm one time a year with Equimax or Zimectrin Gold. I asked about a time of year and she said typically spring, but I think I'll do it now, at least for the young horse that was out in pasture until August.
            The Evil Chem Prof

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            • #46
              keep in mind the protocols for young horses under 2 are different from adults who have (hopefully) built their immunity

              And, depending on where you live, despite clean FECs you may still need to deworm Spring and Fall, those darn bots and tapeworms.

              But certainly if you're in an area that either just doesn't have bots, or has a low incidence of tapeworms (which is So Cal where you are), then 1x a year may well be all that's needed
              ______________________________
              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

              Comment


              • #47
                The young horse is 3 and was on a pretty solid de-worming program. He could have a bit more weight and I figure de-worming and then increasing the feed makes more sense than doing the reverse. And thanks for this thread which reminded me to ask the vet.
                The Evil Chem Prof

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                • #48
                  A recent article from The Horse. Interesting that they are saying
                  "Don't treat at the first frost. "Frost doesn't kill infective strongyle larvae or eggs of the roundworm Parascaris equorum," Nielsen said. "When the first frost occurs, the grazing season is typically over, and so is the active parasite transmission season. Treatment at this time has been associated with an increased risk of parasitic disease and could potentially accelerate the development of drug resistant worms. Rather than targeting treatments at the time of the first frost, parasite treatments should be performed well ahead of this, and the first frost should mark a time period with less intensive deworming."
                  "
                  http://www.thehorse.com/articles/308...-dos-and-donts

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                  • #49
                    Hmmm.... I understand the theory, but...

                    The goal of using an -ectin after a good freeze is to treat for bots - the freeze kills (most) all the bot flies, which prevents further egg deposits, so killing the ingested larva at that point keeps the horse (mostly) clean until the Spring. You have to use an -ectin for that - nothing else gets them.

                    I guess I can understand the "don't deworm after a frost" if that means the horses are off pasture for the Winter, as it certainly the case in some areas. But mine, and many, many others in this area, continue to nibble on Winter pasture all season. So no, grazing season isn't over just because of a freeze in many places.

                    I'm also leery of his "don't deworm around foaling" comments. While I get the fact that most of the issues are already in the environment and have nothing to do with the mare, the reason for deworming the mare right after foaling is to eliminate as much of the intestinal threadworm issue which is a significant cause of the "foal scours".

                    And lastly, I really, really don't understand his program for young horses up to a year. He's recommending deworming only every 3 months, starting at 2-3 months. That flies in the face of every other modern recommendations for horses up to a year or so.

                    So, color me confused about some of his stuff
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      He has afew good points but in a very, very general sense, but I will say that I will take instruction from other parasitologists.

                      Really and for the most part it is just not that difficult even in a herd such as mine where I have horses ranging in age from mths to very old. Unless you run into a out of the norm parasite or are truly "blessed" with a resistant parasite issue let me add. I still get good kills from all wormers and to the best of my knowledge the local vets have only ID'ed 2 farms in the county with true resistance issues.

                      Perhaps it is my area and the cultural/economic influence, but my observation is we have way more horse owners not worming at all still....ever...then we have owners "over worming" here. And it would seem the new in thing is for an expert to come up with their own set of rules in this "new revolution".

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                      • #51
                        That's interesting you have a population there which seems to not deworm (enough). That's a good thing to some degree!

                        There have been enough studies done on farms in a variety of areas of the country, finding very high, even 100% resistance to both pp and fen, that one should assume you (in general) have an issue until you can prove you don't. No study will tell you it's a comprehensive resistance, and say there are still likely to be/still are pockets, large and small, where they have remained effective.


                        I actually found that pyrantel pamoate is (still? again?) quite effective on strongyles on my farm - yay! Fenbendazole is not - oh well. Of those 2, the pp is the one more likely to be found effective enough. But, you can't know which is, if either, until you have the opportunity of a high count and do a FECRT.

                        One of the best things one can do on a given farm if they find the pp and fen to have resistance issues is to flat out stop using them for as many years as you can. That can allow a population of strongyles to develop that have a lowered resistance.
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Grazing season is over here when there is too much snow. That can be two or even three MONTHS after the first frost!
                          Click here before you buy.

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by JB View Post
                            That's interesting you have a population there which seems to not deworm (enough). That's a good thing to some degree!

                            There have been enough studies done on farms in a variety of areas of the country, finding very high, even 100% resistance to both pp and fen, that one should assume you (in general) have an issue until you can prove you don't. No study will tell you it's a comprehensive resistance, and say there are still likely to be/still are pockets, large and small, where they have remained effective.


                            I actually found that pyrantel pamoate is (still? again?) quite effective on strongyles on my farm - yay! Fenbendazole is not - oh well. Of those 2, the pp is the one more likely to be found effective enough. But, you can't know which is, if either, until you have the opportunity of a high count and do a FECRT.

                            One of the best things one can do on a given farm if they find the pp and fen to have resistance issues is to flat out stop using them for as many years as you can. That can allow a population of strongyles to develop that have a lowered resistance.
                            Trust me it is not a good thing. Not at all. Very frustrating when you are to bleeding heart that takes in the loaded with parasites to the point of serious health issues too. Bot flies used to be a plague around here....seriously. Watched a mare purchased by a relative drop piles and piles and piles of bot larva after she was wormed. It was past freak show levels and to the point of an alien invasion experience. Then when the ecomony went in the dumps I lost all my horsie neighors. Have not seen a bot fly here in over 3 yrs.

                            With the economy and hay issue the way it is currently....well lets just say some (too many) horses in the area in general get sub par care. Their fate this winter even more delicate.

                            I still get good kill from pp and fen. Never have had an issue but prefer pp in younger horses with round issues if needs be.

                            This article and many others....well you never really know just how much the author presents info out of context. Is he offering up what he learned in the true manner this parasitologist presented it....thus educating. Or is he wanting an audience "on the edge of its seat" and just in it too culivate a reading audience. Hard to say.

                            But again I will take my instruction from others.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              I said "good thing to some degree" as that is probably one of the biggest reasons you don't seem to have a resistance issue in general.

                              Trust me, I fully understand issues with not deworming at all - that is not a good thing. I was merely pointing out a potential silver lining
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by JB View Post
                                I said "good thing to some degree" as that is probably one of the biggest reasons you don't seem to have a resistance issue in general.

                                Trust me, I fully understand issues with not deworming at all - that is not a good thing. I was merely pointing out a potential silver lining
                                Interesting assumption. I do not agree with your probable conclusion.

                                The reason I do not have resistance issues in general here is my worming program does not nor ever has promoted a population of resistant parasites and a bigger factor is very likely environmental.

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