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(Update: Normal Vit. E) Anyone Have Experience with Muscle Disorders?

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  • #21
    Was the blood for the CBC that showed anemia drawn after work? A low RBC or iron level is NOT AT ALL unusual in horses when the blood is drawn during rest, as the spleen stores RBCs that are released as needed during exercise. I would not supplement anything for "anemia" unless the blood was drawn directly following some fairly strenuous work.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      Update

      First off, long story short but I still don't have the results for the vit. E. The vet has been too busy to discuss them, then I wasn't able to catch her assistant to just see what the results were, and now they're apparently closed on Wednesdays. Not too happy with this clinic at the moment as it's been such a production to try and get these results.

      Crthunder--thanks for that information. What are some of those supplements? Like what are the chia seeds for? And I'd love to see those papers you have on muscle disorders--do I need to PM you my email?

      Smikie--Wow, that's really interesting. And no, he was not really worked prior to pulling the blood (we just did some flexions and I hopped on briefly for the vet to see him under saddle). But then he had his teeth done and we decided to pull blood last. So would you stop with the Red Cell? Give a smaller amount? Or quit it all together? Vet wanted to recheck blood (so, I guess that's another $150ish for the same panel) in 3-4 weeks. I'd prefer not to do this because it now really seems unnecessary. Thoughts?

      On the plus side, my horse felt quite a bit better yesterday. I walked him and then did some brief trot and canter each direction as the vet recommended. His walk felt more balanced than it had (last Wed. through Sunday) and he was much more forward off of my leg than he's been during that time (well, Thursday-Sunday). He maybe still felt a little off but I'm going to have some eyes on the ground to give me some feedback when I hop on again briefly tonight.
      Originally posted by RugBug
      Don't throw away opportunities because they aren't coming in exactly the form you want them to.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Dressage.For.Life. View Post
        First off, long story short but I still don't have the results for the vit. E. The vet has been too busy to discuss them, then I wasn't able to catch her assistant to just see what the results were, and now they're apparently closed on Wednesdays. Not too happy with this clinic at the moment as it's been such a production to try and get these results.

        Crthunder--thanks for that information. What are some of those supplements? Like what are the chia seeds for? And I'd love to see those papers you have on muscle disorders--do I need to PM you my email?

        Smikie--Wow, that's really interesting. And no, he was not really worked prior to pulling the blood (we just did some flexions and I hopped on briefly for the vet to see him under saddle). But then he had his teeth done and we decided to pull blood last. So would you stop with the Red Cell? Give a smaller amount? Or quit it all together? Vet wanted to recheck blood (so, I guess that's another $150ish for the same panel) in 3-4 weeks. I'd prefer not to do this because it now really seems unnecessary. Thoughts?

        On the plus side, my horse felt quite a bit better yesterday. I walked him and then did some brief trot and canter each direction as the vet recommended. His walk felt more balanced than it had (last Wed. through Sunday) and he was much more forward off of my leg than he's been during that time (well, Thursday-Sunday). He maybe still felt a little off but I'm going to have some eyes on the ground to give me some feedback when I hop on again briefly tonight.
        Wow, send them and email and request a scanned copy. Seems like they can easily share that way....kinda a no brainer. I understand vets get tied up often. But that does not mean docs are not easily passed to you the owner who paid for the service.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          Yes, I will be calling when they open in the morning to at least get the results emailed to me! I'm hoping I'll be able to catch the vet before she heads out on farm calls then too.
          Originally posted by RugBug
          Don't throw away opportunities because they aren't coming in exactly the form you want them to.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #25
            Alright, apparently the office was misinformed as the vit E results are still not back as they were sent to Cornell (7-10 days from when they were sent out).

            So, the vet said that the RBC were low enough even at rest that she wanted him on the Red Cell and to recheck his levels in 3-4 weeks. WBC were slightly low but she said she wasn't too concerned about that. But everything else was good--thyroid she said was a perfect 1.8, total protein was right at 6.5. Selenium and magnesium were not on this panel and she said to do a mineral analysis I'm looking at $300-400 dollars.

            She said that we'll obviously know much more in terms of whether is could be something muscular once we get the vit. E results back. She also said that we can do a truer evaluation once we get more weight and muscle on him. She thought his reluctance to move for the Friday through Sunday following his lameness/her appointment was due to the adjustment (lactic acid, etc.).

            I rode again last night and two others at the barn (with good eyes for lameness) thought he looked much, much better. They think at this point he's just looking more like he did a couple of years ago before we got his hind end built up following his stall rest for those hind suspensories--weak. So the plan is to work him and try to build him up again. We've started to add a little oil to his rations and can work that up as I know a lot of EPSM type horses seem to be on quite a bit of oil for the added fat. I'm just worried about unbalanced omega 3 vs 6.
            Originally posted by RugBug
            Don't throw away opportunities because they aren't coming in exactly the form you want them to.

            Comment


            • #26
              I would be checking selenium levels if muscles were involved.

              Dalemma

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                Thanks Dalemma. Currently just waiting on the vitamin e results but we are in a selenium deficient area. It may well be a good idea to have that mineral analysis pulled because of that (when she sees him next to see if the adjustment held and to see how he's otherwise looking movement wise).
                Originally posted by RugBug
                Don't throw away opportunities because they aren't coming in exactly the form you want them to.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Ouch--it costs me $80 including a shared barn call to run an Se test--but that's all we test for. If you are in a defficient area and your horse is having muscle issues, I'd really advise you to get on this without hanging about. Muscles are a-damaging...

                  I'd do a bit of research on Red Cell and anaemia in horses, if I were you. My understanding is that it is very poorly absorbed.

                  (And, just so you are aware in case you have the same issue, the only time I've ever used it, many years ago, it turned my mild-mannered, elderly mare into a firebreathing dragon...)

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Thanks atr, that price is much more reasonable! I'll try and call the office tomorrow to see if it'd be possible to just test for the Se. I want to say that I read that some of these EPSM horses are also deficient in Magnesium, is that true? And that supplementing with that can really help them as well? Or is it not connected to conditions such as EPSM like low levels of vit. E and Se are?

                    You still (even though we're in a deficient area) wouldn't start him on an Se supplement without bloodwork through, would you? Due to toxicity issues?

                    And thanks for that info on the Red Cell maybe not being absorbed too well. So do you know if there are Iron or whatever in the form of injections? As that would work better, I'd imagine, as well as be easier than fighting to get the Red Cell into my horse. And luckily my Thoroughbred has not turned into a firebreathing dragon due to the RC (well, at least not yet...). I appreciate the heads up on that though as well!

                    Can I ask why you had to have a horse on Red Cell? And did you just stop due to absorbancy issues? thanks.
                    Originally posted by RugBug
                    Don't throw away opportunities because they aren't coming in exactly the form you want them to.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      She was on Red Cell because she had some serious liver issues going on--we believed it to probably be bracken or some other alkaloid poisoning. This was 20-ish years ago... from what I can recall we stopped it because we all wanted to live to see another day She made a good recovery, btw, lived many more years and it wasn't what got her in the end.

                      I would do the test before you supplement with Se, as much as anything you should get a baseline which will be skewed if you test after you start supplementing.

                      My feeling is that if it comes back even in the moderate range, some horses seem to need more than others, so I'd supplement, and recheck in 3 months. Then you'll know if it's working, if you need to cut back or even give a bit more. It's harder to OD Se supplementally than most people think. Most ofthe horses seen with Se poisoning have been grazing on poisonous pasture one way or another.

                      One thing we see here in horses that need extra Se is poor coat condition, btw... but, not in all of them, because that would make life far too easy.

                      My personal jury is still out on Mag. It's in the "can't hurt, might help" category as far as I am concerned.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Update!

                        Thanks atr!

                        To update:: My barn had an outside trainer that we have coming in once a week (well, more like ever couple weeks as he's always out of state at events ) out last night. I figured I'd pay for a lesson just to get another opinion as he knows my horse's "normal" way of going.

                        The good news--after carefully watching my horse at the walk and trot for upwards of ten minutes, he finally said "he looks good, really good". I'd just been waiting for that "he's lame" but it never came.

                        So I ended up getting a great ride in last night--Vinnie felt better than he did even a month ago (far before he went lame last week). His nice canter was back, and he had lots of good energy.

                        It was such a relief last night--maybe now I can put the "what if it his suspensory again" into the back of my mind. I'm anxious to see what the vit E levels come back as...
                        Originally posted by RugBug
                        Don't throw away opportunities because they aren't coming in exactly the form you want them to.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Dressage.For.Life. View Post
                          Alright, apparently the office was misinformed as the vit E results are still not back as they were sent to Cornell (7-10 days from when they were sent out).

                          So, the vet said that the RBC were low enough even at rest that she wanted him on the Red Cell and to recheck his levels in 3-4 weeks. WBC were slightly low but she said she wasn't too concerned about that. But everything else was good--thyroid she said was a perfect 1.8, total protein was right at 6.5. Selenium and magnesium were not on this panel and she said to do a mineral analysis I'm looking at $300-400 dollars.

                          She said that we'll obviously know much more in terms of whether is could be something muscular once we get the vit. E results back. She also said that we can do a truer evaluation once we get more weight and muscle on him. She thought his reluctance to move for the Friday through Sunday following his lameness/her appointment was due to the adjustment (lactic acid, etc.).

                          I rode again last night and two others at the barn (with good eyes for lameness) thought he looked much, much better. They think at this point he's just looking more like he did a couple of years ago before we got his hind end built up following his stall rest for those hind suspensories--weak. So the plan is to work him and try to build him up again. We've started to add a little oil to his rations and can work that up as I know a lot of EPSM type horses seem to be on quite a bit of oil for the added fat. I'm just worried about unbalanced omega 3 vs 6.
                          If omega 6:3 ratio is a concern then select oils such as soybean oil, canola oil, or flax oil.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Thanks D Taylor! I have him on Canola oil for now as that's what I could grab in my small town to get him started on. I think it's 3:1 omega 6:3. I'm going to try and order some flax seed oil if it's not too cost prohibitive as I think it's 1:4 omega 6:3.
                            Originally posted by RugBug
                            Don't throw away opportunities because they aren't coming in exactly the form you want them to.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              From the descriptions in this post and in the original one linked you may also want to investigate the possibility of DSLD now called ESPA. The video's did not work well on my computer, but from what I could see of his conformation he sure looks like a suspicious case.

                              I had a mare with this so as soon as I read your first paragraph in regards to his conformation/movement issues the red flag started waving.

                              This link can give you a start and there is more out there with a Google search. http://dsldequine.info/

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Thanks, beaulilly. Luckily, my horse has not had any reoccurring suspensory problems (*knocks on wood*). I try to keep the thought of DSLD in the back of my mind although I know there's always the possibility of it becoming an issue with my horse someday.

                                So how did your mare present with DSLD?
                                Originally posted by RugBug
                                Don't throw away opportunities because they aren't coming in exactly the form you want them to.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  Update: Vitamin E results are surprisingly normal. I was told just to continue with the Red Cell. The vet will be back out next Thursday (the 15th) to see if the adjustment held, etc.

                                  Could it still potentially be beneficial to supplement with vitamin E? As I think I've read that EPSM horses still benefit from more??
                                  Originally posted by RugBug
                                  Don't throw away opportunities because they aren't coming in exactly the form you want them to.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    DFL - you might want to look at Horsetech's product called TUP (stands for tie up product ) It has 5000 mg mag, 2 mg Se, 4000mg vit E. The standard product is made with synthetic vit E but if you request it, they can make it with nat vit E, it just costs a bit more.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by candico View Post
                                      That said, all my EPSM horses have had varying symptoms and no two are exactly alike! Fun...

                                      How many EPSM horses have you had? Curious about this, are they all of one breed? Wondering how you managed to have more than one of them? I am thinking this "disorder" is WAY more common than any of us imagine.....

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by outfoxem View Post
                                        How many EPSM horses have you had? Curious about this, are they all of one breed? Wondering how you managed to have more than one of them? I am thinking this "disorder" is WAY more common than any of us imagine.....
                                        I had bred my G line Hanoverian mare three times before I realized she had EPSM - she tied up during the third delivery, but before that I just considered her as a sassy chestnut mare that occasionally could have a good bucking fit at the canter. Kept the two offspring, third deceased, as I worried they may wind up at a Mexican slaughter house as EPSM horses can be very disappointing and beyond frustrating to deal with in unsympathetic hands. Have boarded a Friesian that also was positive for EPSM although he presented quite differently in that he seemed like a neuro case. My vet had her own warmblood riding mare finally biopsied positive after frustration with frequent tripping. In hindsight, we knew of three others, one thoroughbred, one Dutch mare, and one other G line Hanoverian that had all the signs. I believe one stat said 1/3 light breed horses and 2/3 draft breed, but I do think that is now considered high. FWIW, they were considering euthanizing the Friesian who was only 7 or 8 I believe, before giving the EPSM diet a try.

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