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If you feed a liquid HA supplement (Force Flex, Conquer, Hylaun, etc.)... how?

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  • If you feed a liquid HA supplement (Force Flex, Conquer, Hylaun, etc.)... how?

    Do you topdress the food? Actually syringe it out and squirt it into their mouths every day. For those of you who board, how do you handle this?

    I'd really like to try my guy on Flex Force HA, but I board and I am not sure it's fair for me to expect the feeders to syringe it up and squirt it into his mouth daily. I could do it myself when I go out, but then he'd only get it 6 days a week and if I went out of town, etc. I'd have to skip it or ask someone to do it for me.

    Ideas appreciated!

    Also, if you buy larger containers, do you have any problems? Does it degrade or seem less potent by the end of the jug?

    THX
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

  • #2
    I always just put it on the food. Some have suggested that absorption is greater when orally dosed but like you, I board and that wasn't going to happen. I found that the supplement was effective when put on the food.

    The bigger problem is temperature sensitivity. The gels & liquids lose efficacy under about 45 degrees. Unless you have a heated feed room, this doesn't work year 'round. So I switched to a pelleted HA supplement. I don't actually know if it's any less temperature sensitive, but I keep it at home and make up only a few days worth of supplement baggies at a time. I think that the pellets & powders are not absorbed as well as the gels & liquids, so I feed a higher dose.

    p.s. it's Flex Force - just in case your searches were coming up empty
    "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." - The Little Prince

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Hmmm... maybe what I should do is buy it pelleted, add it to his supplement containers... and then ALSO dose him when I am out at the barn? Then he'd still be getting SOME every day and even more most days? Course, that ain't cheaper and I've read a couple of articles that say pretty clearly it's not supposed to go to the stomach, it's supposed to be dosed onto a mucus membrane.

      Appreciate the suggestions!
      ~Veronica
      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

      Comment


      • #4
        I use Hyalun.

        Originally, not knowing better, I was top dressing, but there was still a noticeable (to the vet) improvement. But my vet told me it was important to squirt it in the mouth, and I have been doing that ever since.

        I keep my horses at home, so I do it myself mostly. But when I go away, the person who comes over to feed, etc. has no problems with giving it orally (to two of them).

        I would think that doing it (via squirt) 6 days a week woould be the better alternative, but you should ask our vet.
        Janet

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

        Comment


        • #5
          Have you asked your barn if they will squirt it for you?

          Or do the 6 days yourself and on the 7th let him have it in his food (which could also work if you're going away too)?

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by Jocelynne View Post
            Have you asked your barn if they will squirt it for you?

            Or do the 6 days yourself and on the 7th let him have it in his food (which could also work if you're going away too)?
            Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that. Take on squirt duty most days and have them top dress on the day the barn is closed for riding. Brilliant! Or just ask them to squirt that day!

            I am going to ask tonight if squirting is a problem. Even if it's not, I feel bad burdening the feeders. And some days, it's kids. I don't ANTICIPATE that my horse will be resistant to squirts, especially since the Flex Force is cherry flavored and what's bad about that?! But he's also 17.2 and when he doesn't want you to access his mouth-- he uses his height to his advantage. I don't want teenagers to have to be wrestling with him during feed time, etc. Hopefully he won't mind the cherry squirt.
            ~Veronica
            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

            Comment


            • #7
              I really don't think dosing directly vs top dressing makes any difference. For example, I have a 25-year-old who gets HA gel on his feed each morning. I ran out briefly and he was visibly lamer without it. With it, back to running around and trotting sound. I've since tried taking him off the gel to the same effect. Also, having used lots of HA products, I keep going back to Conquer or Chondrogen EQ. The others just don't seem to work as well. Last, for what it's worth, I don't think skipping 1 day/week would make any difference at all if you don't trust that the barn staff will get your horse dosed.

              Edited to add that I take care of my horses at home and still don't worry about direct dosing. It goes on the feed or they don't get it.

              Comment


              • #8
                It's OK to skip a day, other than the loading dose. After all, Conquer's original maintenance recommendation was every other day. (Not sure if it still is.)

                If it were me, I wouldn't confuse the issue by asking it to be fed 1 day/week. Could be costly if they get in the habit while you're dosing him as well. I'd just dose it myself the 6 days and be done with it. Plus that way you can keep it wherever the heat is, or bring it with you from home.

                Dang. I think I just talked myself into doing this too!
                "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." - The Little Prince

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Retrofit, are you near me? Wanna split the humongo container of Flex Force? LOL. Because it's $0.25/day in the humongo container and $0.50 in the normal size... so I'm really leaning towards humongo!
                  ~Veronica
                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Actually I am. I probably can't commit though, I'm dealing with ulcers? food allergies? and might have to pull her off everything, then start back one-by-one ... so I have no idea what I'll be feeding in a week let alone a month.

                    Just get the humungo one, it won't spoil. You can blame me for enabling you.
                    "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." - The Little Prince

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I saw great results with Flex Force HA liquid, the cherry stuff, on my oldster. Only reason I stopped using it was because it made his manure very hard for some reason. Scary hard. Otherwise it really did work great on his old joints, and I did notice a difference between syringing it and top dressing it. My guess is there really is a lot more absorption going on when its the only thing in the mouth. Mixed with food it must get swallowed too fast. Perhaps it depends on the type of eater the horse is. Mine inhales his meager allotment.

                      Syringing was a PITA though. My horse was more or less agreeable but over time it got old for both of us, and my guy isn't a fan of cherry flavor apparently. And the solution is sticky. It was just a hassle.

                      I ended up dumping a dollop into his feed pan and then drizzling something he loves over the top of it. Just so happens he LOVES Air Power, which is very strong and hid the cherry taste well. He'd dutifully lap up the FFHA every morning. Perhaps it would work for you.

                      I did get the humungous jug, it was a much better buy, and it has a long shelf life and doesn't freeze.

                      I tried the pellets and it wasn't nearly as effective as the liquid.

                      I too only see my horses 6 days a week, and I can't ask the BO to bother with syrups, so we just would skip one day a week and there was no problem.
                      Being terrible at something is the first step to being truly great at it. Struggle is the evidence of progress.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by retrofit View Post
                        Actually I am. I probably can't commit though, I'm dealing with ulcers? food allergies? and might have to pull her off everything, then start back one-by-one ... so I have no idea what I'll be feeding in a week let alone a month.

                        Just get the humungo one, it won't spoil. You can blame me for enabling you.
                        Understood, you don't want to mix it up when you're trying to get to the bottom of something.
                        ~Veronica
                        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          these suggest it is absorbed just fine when given orally:

                          Vet Comp Orthop Traumatol. 2009;22(6):455-9. Epub 2009 Oct 29.

                          Effect of the administration of an oral hyaluronan formulation on clinical and biochemical parameters in young horses with osteochondrosis.

                          Carmona JU, Argüelles D, Deulofeu R, Martínez-Puig D, Prades M.


                          Source

                          Department de Medicina i Cirugia Animal, Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona, Cerdanyola de Vallès, Spain. carmona@ucaldas.edu.co


                          Abstract

                          The aim of this study was to evaluate the clinical and biochemical effects of the administration of oral hyaluronan (Hyal-Joint [HJ]) on young horses with osteochondrosis (OC). Our hypotheses were that HJ administration is safe, would decrease the degree of synovial effusion and the concentration of nitric oxide (NO) and prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) in synovial fluid, and would increase the concentration of hyaluronic acid (HA) in plasma and synovial fluid. Eleven young horses with tarsocrural OC were included in a randomised, double-blinded, placebo-controlled pilot clinical trial. Six horses received 250 mg/day HJ for 60 days (T60) and five horses received a placebo. The initial values of the degree of synovial effusion, NO, PGE2 and HA concentrations in synovial fluid and HA concentration in plasma were obtained. The horses were evaluated in terms of the same parameters at the end of treatment (T60) and 30 days thereafter (T90). The differences between the groups for each of the parameters evaluated at T0, T60 and T90 were not significant. Nevertheless, the horses treated with HJ tended to show a lower score for synovial effusion as well as higher HA, NO and PGE2 concentrations in synovial fluid, but these differences were non-significant. At a dose of 250 mg/day, HJ did not produce any adverse clinical effects and was well tolerated by the horses.


                          PMID: 19876524 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
                          Equine Vet J. 2006 Jul;38(4):375-8.

                          Oral hyaluronan gel reduces post operative tarsocrural effusion in the yearling Thoroughbred.

                          Bergin BJ, Pierce SW, Bramlage LR, Stromberg A.


                          Source

                          Rood and Riddle Equine Hospital, Lexington, Kentucky 40580-2070, USA.


                          Abstract

                          REASONS FOR PERFORMING STUDY:

                          Hyaluronan (HA) has been used to treat joint disease via intra-articular, i.v. and oral administration. The efficacy of intra-articular and i.v. use has been evaluated but the oral route has yet to be examined.

                          OBJECTIVES:

                          To determine the effect of oral hyaluronan gel on joint effusion following arthroscopic surgery for osteochondritis dissecans (OCD) of the tarsocrural joint of yearling Thoroughbreds.

                          METHODS:

                          Forty-eight yearlings diagnosed with unilateral or bilateral osteochondritis dessicans (OCD) of the tarsus were arbitrarily chosen prior to arthroscopic surgery. The yearlings were included only if they had mild or no synovial effusion pre-surgery. Twenty-four of the yearlings (27 joints) were treated with 100 mg of HA orally for 30 days post operatively and 24 (30 joints) with a placebo orally for 30 days. At 30 days post operation, a blinded examiner scored the effusion of the dorsomedial tarsocrural joint individually using a scale of 0 to 5 (0 = no effusion, 1 = barely palpable effusion, 2 = palpable effusion [without plantar effusion], 3 = golf ball sized effusion with plantar effusion, 4 = tennis ball sized effusion with plantar effusion, 5 = > tennis ball sized effusion with plantar effusion). Half grades were allowed and OCD lesion sizes and locations were compared.

                          RESULTS:

                          A total of 57 joints were examined, of which 33 had OCD of the distal intermediate ridge of the tibia, 19 OCD of the distal lateral trochlear ridge of the talus and 5 OCD of the medial malleolus. The mean 30 day effusion score of the HA treated group (27 joints) was 0.67 while the mean of the 30 day placebo group (30 joints) was 2.05 (P < or = 0.0001). Similar results were noted when comparing treated vs. placebo for each lesion location as well as for lesion sizes.

                          CONCLUSIONS AND POTENTIAL RELEVANCE:

                          Oral preparations of hyaluronan are being used to treat joint disease in horse. Anecdotal reports supporting the efficacy of these preparations already exist. This study provides objective evidence that oral HA reduces joint effusion post operatively following the arthroscopic removal of an OCD lesion in the tarsocrural joint.


                          PMID: 16866209 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


                          J Agric Food Chem. 2008 Nov 26;56(22):10582-93.

                          Absorption, uptake and tissue affinity of high-molecular-weight hyaluronan after oral administration in rats and dogs.

                          Balogh L, Polyak A, Mathe D, Kiraly R, Thuroczy J, Terez M, Janoki G, Ting Y, Bucci LR, Schauss AG.


                          Source

                          Department of Applied Radioisotopes, National FJC Research Institute for Radiobiology and Radiohygiene, Fodor Jozsef National Center of Health, Budapest, Hungary, .


                          Abstract

                          The purpose of this study was to determine the absorption, distribution and excretion of (99m)technetium-labeled, high-molecular-weight hyaluronan (((99m)Tc-HA) and (99m)technetium pertechnetate ((99m)Tc-P) after single dose, oral administration to Wistar rats and Beagle dogs. A pilot study utilized (99m)Tc-HA alone, and a second confirmatory study compared uptake of labeled (99m)Tc-HA with (99m)Tc-P. Urinary and fecal excretion after (99m)Tc-HA ingestion by rats showed 86.7-95.6% of radioactivity was recovered, almost all in feces. All tissues examined showed incorporation of radioactivity from (99m)Tc-HA starting at 15 min and persisting for 48 h, in a pattern significantly different from (99m)Tc-P. Whole-body scintigraphs and close-ups of the ventral chest region showed nonalimentary radioactivity from (99m)Tc-HA concentrated in joints, vertebrae and salivary glands four hours after administration. Autoradiography of skin, bone and joint tissue pieces after 24 h showed incorporation of radioactivity from (99m)Tc-HA, but not from (99m)Tc-P. Conversely, absorption, distribution and excretion of (99m)Tc was completely different from (99m)Tc-HA, showing an expected pattern of rapid absorption and excretion in urine, with accumulation in thyroid glands, stomach, kidney and bladder. This report presents the first evidence for uptake and distribution to connective tissues of orally administered, high-molecular-weight HA.


                          PMID: 18959406 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            added extra message: I wouldn't think squirting it in the mouth would be much different than top-dressing the feed- the horse is going to swallow the bulk of the gel either way, and as the gel comes into contact with mucuous membranes in various parts of the digestive tract it will get absorbed. It's supposedly resistant to being broken down by stomach acid (not sure about this one).

                            the gel itself is very stable and shouldn't really break down in tack room conditions unless your tack room is extremely hot a lot of the time.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by wendy View Post
                              added extra message: I wouldn't think squirting it in the mouth would be much different than top-dressing the feed- the horse is going to swallow the bulk of the gel either way, and as the gel comes into contact with mucuous membranes in various parts of the digestive tract it will get absorbed. It's supposedly resistant to being broken down by stomach acid (not sure about this one).

                              the gel itself is very stable and shouldn't really break down in tack room conditions unless your tack room is extremely hot a lot of the time.
                              That's what I thought too re: absorbtion but there's a lot of recommendations online from people using the products who saw better results with squirting. Maybe it has something to do with some of the product ending up left on the bucket when top dressed??!!

                              My plan was to take the giant container and pour a week's worth or so into a smaller container and just bring that and the syringe to the barn. Our tack room is climate controlled (not heated like a house but nothing gets frozen in there either, it's a normal/cool temperature).

                              I just didn't know how quickly it degraded. My farrier has been very clear that Biotin quickly loses potency, so it's best not to buy it in giant containers. I didn't know if HA was similar.
                              ~Veronica
                              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I feed the Flex Force HA liquid and put it in my horses feed.

                                How do I know its working? Well purely anecdotal but when I started Layla on it, not long after, our rides became so nice and fluid and she just felt good. If I stopped it, she got more stiff.

                                For Rex, he has a bog spavin on his right hock from a previous OCD lesion. I started giving him the HA just to make me feel better and noticed 3 weeks later that his bog spavin was over half the size.

                                The way I feed is put my grain in the bucket, put supplements on top, pour 1oz approx of the HA on top, stir and mix well with spoon. Layla is super picky about powder supplements so having the HA liquid mixed in ensures that she is going to get everything I put in there as she licks her bowl clean to the point of leaving saliva puddles.
                                ~~~~~~~~~

                                Member of the ILMD[FN]HP Clique, The Florida Clique, OMGiH I loff my mares, and the Bareback Riders clique!

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Ordered the smaller container and a nifty looking dosing syringe (had a bunch of people raving about how easy it made to feed their goats, LOL, of all things) and I'm going to try the "squirt when I go out" plan and see how it goes
                                  ~Veronica
                                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I think doing the dosing while you are out there is a great idea. I worry about others having to give my horses medication etc orally and my horses developing issues as a result (you should see all of my for worming, I have to pry the wormer tube out of 2 of their mouths and the other one is beyond perfect - would hate to have that ruined!).

                                    Keep us posted on how it works for you

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Hocks injected today. Off this weekend. Starting the HA and back in light work Tuesday (provided my order arrives by then, I think it will). He's also on monthly Adequan and Pentosan. He's an older guy, longbacked and tends to get hock sore as a result, with work. Has been doing well on just bi-yearly hock injections and monthly adequan but I feel like he's aging and in the best shape of his life and I want to maintain him and keep him even moe comfortable. Will update!!! Appreciate all the tips and suggestions!
                                      ~Veronica
                                      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I use Force-Flex and syringe it orally when at the barn. Since they are boarded I give a little more than recommended per dose. Seemed to do the job just fine!
                                        "If you've got a horse, you've got a problem"

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