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Update on Founder with Link to Pics and X-Rays- Update on Post 60

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    Originally posted by Foothill_Farrier View Post
    I can understand the logic behind that argument, but...

    You've got a partially detached hoof wall, (depending on how bad the laminitic event is/was) and now you're putting stress on the coffin bone and hoof wall attachment with every step the horse takes. In my experience, it's worse to let the horse move about, than it is to not encourage circulation.

    Think of it this way: If you'd wacked your thumb so badly that you thought you might lose the nail, would you be using that nail to pop open your sodas a week later just because it didn't hurt as much?



    From a medical standpoint, the horse is actively laminitic while there is inflammation in the hoof. The horse has foundered, when the coffin bone has rotated or sunk.
    You can have laminitis without founder, but you can't have founder without laminitis.
    That is a great analogy thank you!

    How do you know when the inflammation is gone?

    Comment


    • #22
      OP you might try creating new thread specifically for vet/farrier suggestions in your area. I'm too far away to be of any help but I know there are quite a few NCers in your area on this board who would have more experience with who (or who not!) to use in your area. If all else fails, contact the NCSU Vet School or Dr. Mansmann (http://equinepodiatrync.homestead.com) to see who they might recommend in your area.
      "Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field." --Dwight D Eisenhower

      Boston Terrier Rescue of NC - www.btrnc.org - Adopt for Life!

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Kwalker024 View Post
        Also, I'm not sure if there is confusion but currently both front feet have been treated for founder by our current farrier now I'm not sure if it is being done correctly or not but it has been done as of Monday.
        Unfortunately, "treating" isn't a one day thing, trim his feet and an anti-inflammatory for a few days, the horse seems better, so its been treated.

        It sounds like from your posts that the vet diagnosed the rotation, didn't take it very serious, adn the horse has been on some sort of confinement but anti-inflammatories haven't been used regularly.

        And, speaking from experience, because my mare did the same thing...a horse with founder can seem okay or better, and then the next day things have taken a drastic turn for the worse. That is why I consider founder an emergency, and the "treatment" regimen has to be stuck to, and taken seriously. My mare's coffin bone was protruding from her sole, and she had a few days that I couldn't believe how "good" she seemed...
        "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
          Unfortunately, "treating" isn't a one day thing, trim his feet and an anti-inflammatory for a few days, the horse seems better, so its been treated.

          It sounds like from your posts that the vet diagnosed the rotation, didn't take it very serious, adn the horse has been on some sort of confinement but anti-inflammatories haven't been used regularly.

          And, speaking from experience, because my mare did the same thing...a horse with founder can seem okay or better, and then the next day things have taken a drastic turn for the worse. That is why I consider founder an emergency, and the "treatment" regimen has to be stuck to, and taken seriously. My mare's coffin bone was protruding from her sole, and she had a few days that I couldn't believe how "good" she seemed...
          No I understand what you are saying and I agree the original vet did not take it seriously enough. As it currently stands the horse has been shod to try and help improve his condition and I'm working to get second opinions on if it is being handled properly on that end.

          As I said I'm also on the hunt to get another vet out ASAP to re-evaluate the situation and make sure we are on the right track. I've gotten a return call from one vet who I spoke to for about 20 min a d he will be out within 24 hours to see the horse. He thankfully sounds more knowledgable then the original vet.

          Anti-inflammatories were used regularly in the beginning and he was weaned off them once the lameness subsided in his left front. Once the lameness started in the right front we did re-resume anti-inflammatories and again weaned him off when the lameness subsided significantly however I'm going to restart them at least low dose until the new vet gets here.

          I really appreciate all the feedback and I'm learning so much! Sorry if there has been any confusion.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #25
            Originally posted by SkipHiLad4me View Post
            OP you might try creating new thread specifically for vet/farrier suggestions in your area. I'm too far away to be of any help but I know there are quite a few NCers in your area on this board who would have more experience with who (or who not!) to use in your area. If all else fails, contact the NCSU Vet School or Dr. Mansmann (http://equinepodiatrync.homestead.com) to see who they might recommend in your area.
            I've got a call into him it seems promising!

            Comment


            • #26
              Regular shoes or anything with pads or packing for support?
              "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

              Comment


              • #27
                Those pictures show some really, really bad feet and farriery. Are those before he went lame?

                Comment


                • #28
                  I would be buying some Soft Ride boots ASAP--gold standard for founder.
                  Topline Leather -- Bespoke, handwoven browbands & accessories customized with Swarovski crystals, gemstones, & glass seed beads. The original crystal braid & crystal spike browbands!

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                    Regular shoes or anything with pads or packing for support?
                    Yes his left front has a pad and heart bar shoe on it with heel support the right since it is his club foot the heel was taken down 2 degrees as well as his toe brought in some. On the right he also has a frog support pad too.

                    Pictures can be seen here:

                    http://s1297.beta.photobucket.com/us...ccrae/library/

                    The album for August is before treatment, the album for September is when just the left was being treated, and the album for October are pictures of both of them being treated.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by hundredacres View Post
                      Those pictures show some really, really bad feet and farriery. Are those before he went lame?
                      The pictures located here:

                      http://s1297.beta.photobucket.com/us...ccrae/library/

                      The album from August is when he was lame on his left front, the album from September is when he was being treated for founder in his left front, and the album from October are pictures of both front feet being treated for founder.

                      He has a heart bar and pad with heel support on the left foot and his right foot since it is clubbed was taken down 2 degrees in the heel and toe brought in some as well as he has a frog support pad on that foot.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Originally posted by Frizzle View Post
                        I would be buying some Soft Ride boots ASAP--gold standard for founder.
                        Can he wear those over his current shoes?

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          I've read also that soaking in ice water can help. Can that be of help too?

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            I don't remember where Pete Ramey is located - Georgia?

                            Anyway, here is his website info which might help you:

                            www.hoofrehab.com

                            There are some x-rays/photos under the rehab section worth studying.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #34
                              Originally posted by grayarabs View Post
                              I don't remember where Pete Ramey is located - Georgia?

                              Anyway, here is his website info which might help you:

                              www.hoofrehab.com

                              There are some x-rays/photos under the rehab section worth studying.
                              Thanks the site looks very educational. It looks like Pete doesn't travel anymore but hopefully I can get some good referrals on that front too.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Kwalker024 View Post
                                That is a great analogy thank you!

                                How do you know when the inflammation is gone?
                                I'm not sure that anyone, Vet/farrier/horse channeler, can tell when the inflammation is gone, short of an MRI.


                                In my case, since my favorite vet is quite familiar with laminitis, I rely upon his expertise.

                                Originally posted by Kwalker024 View Post
                                I've read also that soaking in ice water can help. Can that be of help too?
                                When the horse is actively laminitic, yes. Afterwards... eh. The cooling of the hoof, causing extra circulation, may be offset by the softening of the sole, and possible sinking of the coffin bone. Trust a well known,experienced-in-founder, reputable vet.
                                Matthew Kiwala
                                Foothill Farriers
                                (530) 870-4390

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I think for diet you need to make sure all sugar and startch is at a minimum. I would be adding flax, a stomach product with yeast, mag ox, a hoof supplement with good amounts of copper and zinc, and salt. Obviously I'm not a nutritionist. Obviously you will not cure him with diet. The other posters have given you advice in getting him sorted professionally. Backing him up with the correct diet can be beneficial to your horse.

                                  Terri
                                  COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                                  "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post
                                    I think for diet you need to make sure all sugar and startch is at a minimum. I would be adding flax, a stomach product with yeast, mag ox, a hoof supplement with good amounts of copper and zinc, and salt. Obviously I'm not a nutritionist. Obviously you will not cure him with diet. The other posters have given you advice in getting him sorted professionally. Backing him up with the correct diet can be beneficial to your horse.

                                    Terri
                                    Thank you for the suggestion currently he has been switched to beet pulp without molasses and for supplements vitamin E, magnesium, salt, flax seed, and farriers formula. As well as he is now on costal hay that we soak before he eats it.

                                    We are in the process of getting our hay analyzed and figuring out nutrition wise what he will need from here.

                                    Thanks!

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by Foothill_Farrier View Post
                                      I'm not sure that anyone, Vet/farrier/horse channeler, can tell when the inflammation is gone, short of an MRI.


                                      In my case, since my favorite vet is quite familiar with laminitis, I rely upon his expertise.



                                      When the horse is actively laminitic, yes. Afterwards... eh. The cooling of the hoof, causing extra circulation, may be offset by the softening of the sole, and possible sinking of the coffin bone. Trust a well known,experienced-in-founder, reputable vet.
                                      That makes sense thank you!

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        kwalker, it sounds like you are being proactive and are willing to make changes and learn...don't stop reading and learning. Your previous farrier did a really bad job even before you horse went lame, so it would be best if you could get a new vet and farrier to get you on the better path to health for your horse. Your horse's heels were terribly underslung, if not crushed. When left to go on for a long period of time like that, it's inevitable that more serious problems cropped up (I know this from past experience with my own lack of understanding).

                                        Read as much as you can about hoof balance and laminitis, until you can teach someone else about it. You are the best person to look out for your horse, so you have to take on the responsibility of having that knowledge. Don't rely on farriers and vets alone - get to where you know enough to know when they aren't right for you and your animal.

                                        Best of luck to you!

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Originally posted by hundredacres View Post
                                          kwalker, it sounds like you are being proactive and are willing to make changes and learn...don't stop reading and learning. Your previous farrier did a really bad job even before you horse went lame, so it would be best if you could get a new vet and farrier to get you on the better path to health for your horse. Your horse's heels were terribly underslung, if not crushed. When left to go on for a long period of time like that, it's inevitable that more serious problems cropped up (I know this from past experience with my own lack of understanding).

                                          Read as much as you can about hoof balance and laminitis, until you can teach someone else about it. You are the best person to look out for your horse, so you have to take on the responsibility of having that knowledge. Don't rely on farriers and vets alone - get to where you know enough to know when they aren't right for you and your animal.

                                          Best of luck to you!
                                          Thank you for the encouragement I'm definitely seeking and trying to learn as much as I can.

                                          I've been able to track down a local vet who is very up to date on metabolic conditions and am working to find a local farrier with experience in foundered horses. I have been able to locate an equine podiatrist a few hours away to consult with also.

                                          Fortunately he at least seems stable at the moment and is currently moving great now it is time to work on getting everything on the right track.

                                          Again thank you to everyone and I appreciate all the great advice!

                                          Comment

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