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Yucca not okay for an IR horse? Cheap, IR-friendly joint supps?

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  • Yucca not okay for an IR horse? Cheap, IR-friendly joint supps?

    I usually put my mare on glucosamine for the winter as she tends to get stiff and it always has helped. But now that she's been diagnosed with IR, I've read glucosamine is not ok for her?

    I was thinking of trying Yucca instead, but I'm also reading conflicting info on Yucca and IR. So is Yucca also not safe for IR horses?

    MSM is another cheap option, but I've tried it in the past and while it seems to encourage hoof and coat growth, it never made any difference in stiffness.

    Help?
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!

  • #2
    Glucosamine is fine. Some early studies raised the question of its raising blood sugar, but if I'm not mistaken better research has put this concern to rest.

    On top of that, even large doses of glucosamine are a "drop in the bucket", metabolically speaking. There is far more sugar in a flake of even "diet" hay than there is in a few ounces of any supplement.

    I'd say you're OK to use what you've always used.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...dmrr.1150/full

    http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...ticleid=215813

    http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org.../11/3142.short
    Click here before you buy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Move-Ease was developed for IR horses:

      http://www.mybesthorse.com/productin...n/movease.html

      Comment


      • #4
        Have you tried Animed MSM -- very high MSM dose at great price -- might be worth a try???
        Nothing with horses is ever easy or cheap. And if it is, you're doing it wrong. They always rip out part of your soul when they leave. I guess that's how they find us later.

        Comment


        • #5
          MSM. 20,000 mg/day. Cheap and effective for most horses.
          Originally posted by EquineImagined
          My subconscious is a wretched insufferable beotch.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            She's been on MSM in the past, 99% pure, 20,000mg per day. No effect on stiffness, unfortunately.

            Thanks for the info deltawave!
            Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!

            Comment


            • #7
              Yucca has an aspirin effect. If your horse is sore due to joints, yucca is helpful due to it's properties. But not sure on an IR horse. Guess it depends on what is mixed in with the yucca.

              I would ask your vet.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by rmh_rider View Post
                Yucca has an aspirin effect. If your horse is sore due to joints, yucca is helpful due to it's properties. But not sure on an IR horse. Guess it depends on what is mixed in with the yucca.

                I would ask your vet.
                The articles I was reading said it was the yucca itself that somehow is bad for IR, not what's mixed with it. I'm confused as to what it is about yucca that is bad for IR horses?
                Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!

                Comment


                • #9
                  yucca root is a starchy potato-like food item. I assume feeding starchy roots would be bad for an IR horse. However, you can buy purified yucca saponins that are supposed to be the active ingredient of yucca that wouldn't contain the starch components.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Can you link the articles you were reading that said yucca is bad for IR animals in particular?

                    I would never want to be using an NSAID, even a weak one, day in and day out without a compelling reason. And that has nothing to do with IR and everything to do with being kind to the stomach and the kidneys. I'm not sure if it's the weak-NSAID properties of yucca that are in the product you have in mind or these unsaponifiable products, which I'll admit I know next to nothing about!
                    Click here before you buy.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                      Can you link the articles you were reading that said yucca is bad for IR animals in particular?

                      I would never want to be using an NSAID, even a weak one, day in and day out without a compelling reason. And that has nothing to do with IR and everything to do with being kind to the stomach and the kidneys. I'm not sure if it's the weak-NSAID properties of yucca that are in the product you have in mind or these unsaponifiable products, which I'll admit I know next to nothing about!
                      http://www.jameshartequine.com/Library/Cushings.html

                      http://enduranceridestuff.com/blog/ir/

                      http://iceryder.net/iravoid.html

                      --

                      Also, I even read in some places yucca is GOOD for the gut?

                      http://www.allivet.com/p-488-yucca-i...lammatory.aspx

                      http://www.herbsoftheworld.com/Yucca...port_p_80.html

                      ^ I love how that one says it assists in "beautification"... !
                      Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        yucca isn't thought to act like an NSAID at all- it does appear to have mild anti-inflammatory properties, but some/most reports suggest it's acting somehow via the interior of the gut.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by wendy View Post
                          yucca isn't thought to act like an NSAID at all- it does appear to have mild anti-inflammatory properties, but some/most reports suggest it's acting somehow via the interior of the gut.
                          So it's not considered to be in the same class as bute?
                          Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I stand corrected. Upon further review (NFL pun intended) the putative anti-inflammatory properties of yucca appear to not be directly involving the prostaglandin/prostacyclin pathway that, when mucked with, can wreak havoc on stomach and kidneys.

                            It also does not appear to be all that thrilling in terms of the anti-inflammatory properties it DOES have. Doesn't seem worth the cost, unless there are some very, very cheap sources out there. Although it does appear to have anti-protozoal properties--wonder how soon before it will be marketed for EPM?

                            As to whether it's unsafe for IR animals and why, that remains a mystery. A bunch of blogs repeating one another practically verbatim with NO attribution or citations doesn't rise to the level of "evidence" in my mind. A quick literature search reveals NOTHING indicating it has any significant effect on insulin whatsoever. And the statement that it has "corticosteroid activity" is just plain wrong. Structurally it IS steroid-like, but that is sort of like saying that potassium chloride is just like "salt" and has the same properties as sodium chloride. Yes, the two are both "salts" but one is perfectly safe to give IV in large doses and the other will give a quick and painful death.

                            But personally if the glucosamine is getting the job done, I'd stick with that.
                            Click here before you buy.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Thanks for the info deltawave! I appreciate the scientific insight.
                              Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                The IR/Cushings list doesn't recommend yucca. I tried Mov-Ease for awhile but my horse didn't like the taste and I didn't notice any improvement; shame, because it was dirt cheap and has worked for many many horses that weren't helped by anything else.

                                My vet thinks Glucosamine would be safe to use, but I tend to listen to the Yahoo list because there are sooo many members there, all with similar issues. A vet can't be a specialist in every disease and condition, while the vet on the list is an expert in IR/Cushings. Chondroitin is safe, but it's difficult to find this in a supplement w/o other things that aren't safe.

                                Flax is supposed to be helpful. My horse has Cushings only and I have him on monthly Pentosan and a double dose of MSM. MSM is not recommended (something to do with affecting copper absorption) but my horse's hay isn't balanced with minerals so I'm hoping it'll be OK. The MSM has made a huge difference in him; we're back to him dragging me towards hills so he can run up them again, which he hasn't wanted to do in some time.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The IR/Cushings list doesn't recommend yucca
                                  But do they mention WHY? I am mystified. Even the biggest expert in the world has to respect the medical literature, and even the most uninformed, non-scientific type can use PubMed and find the answers to simple questions like these ("does glucosamine have an effect on insulin levels?", "does yucca have corticosteroid properties?") with very little effort.

                                  A scientist needs to BACK UP their assertions with DATA.

                                  Oh, there I go again.
                                  Click here before you buy.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by sublimequine View Post
                                    I usually put my mare on glucosamine for the winter as she tends to get stiff and it always has helped. But now that she's been diagnosed with IR, I've read glucosamine is not ok for her?
                                    That suggestion was based on an old study where they infused high rates of glucosamine into rats peritoneal cavity.
                                    That has been refuted by new science.

                                    Diabetes/Metabolism Research and Reviews > Vol 27 Issue 1

                                    A comprehensive review of oral glucosamine use and effects on glucose metabolism in normal and diabetic individuals
                                    R. R. Simon1, V. Marks2, A. R. Leeds3,4, J. W. Anderson5,*

                                    "Nevertheless, based on available evidence, we conclude that GlcN has no effect on fasting blood glucose levels, glucose metabolism, or insulin sensitivity at any oral dose level in healthy subjects, individuals with diabetes, or those with impaired glucose tolerance."

                                    Full text here.

                                    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...dmrr.1150/full
                                    Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Thanks for the info Katy. Care to weigh in on the "Yucca is bad for IR horses" debate?
                                      Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I dunno bout yucca. CM Response
                                        http://www.responseproducts.com/cm-r...ction-formula/
                                        and/or IM Adequan knock off worked for my mare with bad arthritis until it got real bad. I take the CM Response. Joint injections didn't help my knees, and it was too expensive to use on my mare as the one time I tried it, it didn't seem to help any better than the IM product .

                                        I do know there are a lot of myths out there based on outdated inferences and extrapolations on too little data, different species, etc. Some have been replaced by real science, but carry on in spite of new evidence to the contrary. Hard to beat down an internet myth once it gets started. Other myths may end up being proven to be true, but my horses could not wait that long, so I had to make decisions on how to keep them comfortable NOW, rather than worry about something that may happen later. I'll just make a new decision when the time is appropriate. Be here now.

                                        The way I figured out what to do was to do my own homework and literature search, try something in as a controlled way as possible, observe my horses carefully, and let THEM tell me what works and what doesn't instead of people on the internet. If something works and your horse is doing great, keep doing it. If when you try something your horse gets a bad side effect, quit doing it. If you do your homework well, you'll know what to look for.

                                        Very little funding for equine sciences, so I feel doubtful we'll get all the answers we need as soon as we need them.
                                        Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org

                                        Comment

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