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Any hay gurus care to comment?

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  • Any hay gurus care to comment?

    It would be appreciated.

    Wondering what you think of this bermuda grass hay as the sole diet for an easy keepers maintance diet?

    hay analysis
    http://i45.tinypic.com/21kdunt.jpg
    Last edited by pj; Aug. 29, 2012, 12:43 PM.
    You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

  • #2
    I can't comment on the analysis but I will admit I clicked that link fully expecting to just see a picture of a bale of hay. "WTF does she want us to tell her from a photo of a bale?!!?"

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by GoForAGallop View Post
      I can't comment on the analysis but I will admit I clicked that link fully expecting to just see a picture of a bale of hay. "WTF does she want us to tell her from a photo of a bale?!!?"
      Guess I should go back and title the link. Thanks for mentioning that.
      You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

      Comment


      • #4
        Should work ok for an EASY keeper.

        Where is Georga?
        Horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
        ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by mzm farm View Post
          Should work ok for an EASY keeper.

          Where is Georga?
          seems it's my day to correct things. Never noticed that I left the I out of GeorgIa.

          Thanks for the hay comment. The two I intend to feed it to are air ferns and at one time got (one in particular) really really fat. Hoping to avoid that in the future by only feeding the hay, 1/4 th cup of flax and the CA minerals per day.

          Off to see if I can correct the spelling of my state.
          You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm not a hay guru, but my husband is. He would say no, but he's pretty picky about what our horses look like. Ours are easy keepers, and we keep good quality hay out to them when they get low on good gazing. We supplement with a little bit of oats that we grow/harvest and that helps keep the hay belly off them; keeps them looking good. This is what we do for our using ranch horses. For one that needs to look really special, we do more.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by 6w ranch View Post
              I'm not a hay guru, but my husband is. He would say no, but he's pretty picky about what our horses look like. Ours are easy keepers, and we keep good quality hay out to them when they get low on good gazing. We supplement with a little bit of oats that we grow/harvest and that helps keep the hay belly off them; keeps them looking good. This is what we do for our using ranch horses. For one that needs to look really special, we do more.
              Can you comment on what parts of the hay that you feel are lacking?
              You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

              Comment


              • #8
                No, I really can't comment on what parts of the hay are lacking, as I'm not able to determine what's lacking. I guess the easiest way of explaining is know the difference between body fat and belly fat. A hay belly indicates that poor quality forage is being provided. The large intestine will retain poor quality forages longer trying to get as much nutrition as possible. That will stretch the large intestine causing the hay belly appearance. Good quality forage will shrink the hindgut back to normal size. Problem is, especially with droughts in many areas of the country the last few years, even good quality hay is lacking. You can make the same comparison with humans. How many of you notice all the muffin tops, and belly fat on people these days? It's a symptom of a diet lacking proper nutrients. Junk food, corn syrup, GMO's, etc. Well, the same thing is happening to our horses. Food quality isn't what it used to be, I don't care how it's represented or sold. Just watch the horse and see how it does. You may have to supplement a little along the way. Too many people just stick to a certain amount of what their feeding and that's it. It's important to have an eye for your horse.

                By the way, your signature about cowboys is funny. Some cowboys are actually smarter than horses and many people. Some are VERY good businessmen, trainers, breeders and riders. I happen to be married to one.
                Last edited by 6w ranch; Aug. 29, 2012, 03:43 PM. Reason: typo

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by 6w ranch View Post
                  No, I really can't comment on what parts of the hay are lacking, as I'm not able to determine what's lacking. I guess the easiest way of explaining is know the difference between body fat and belly fat. A hay belly indicates that poor quality forage is being provided. The large intestine will retain poor quality forages longer trying to get as much nutrition as possible. That will stretch the large intestine causing the hay belly appearance. Good quality forage will shrink the hindgut back to normal size. Problem is, especially with droughts in many areas of the country the last few years, even good quality hay is lacking. You can make the same comparison with humans. How many of you notice all the muffin tops, and belly fat on people these days? It's a symptom of a diet lacking proper nutrients. Junk food, corn syrup, GMO's, etc. Well, the same thing is happening to our horses. Food quality isn't what it used to be, I don't care how it's represented or sold. Just watch the horse and see how it does. You may have to supplement a little along the way. Too many people just stick to a certain amount of what their feeding and that's it. It's important to have an eye for your horse.

                  By the way, your signature about cowboys is funny. Some cowboys are actually smarter than horses and many people. Some are VERY good businessmen, trainers, breeders and riders. I happen to be married to one.
                  I guess I'm a little confused. If we don't know if/what the hay is lacking how do we know it's not suitable quality hay? It sure looks good and smells great but I know those don't tell us anything. I've fed horses for fifty plus years but these are the first ones I've ever had trouble keeping weight off of and I do know many do not feed grain, only hay and vitamin or mineral suppliment if needed and the horses do fine.

                  The reason for my question was wondering if anyone saw a glaring lack that I needed to address.
                  You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm no hay guru, but I had a hard time reading the analysis. ESC, Starch, Lysine and RFV seem to be missing, or are labeled something I don't recognize.

                    The WSC seems on the high side, or at least I consider it high given my experiences. I would guess based on this that the NSCs would be high, probably higher than I would feel comfortable feeding my fat horses, I work hard to stay below 12.

                    Protein seems about right for an average horse in light/no work, not overly high or low.

                    ADF doesn't seem crazy high, so even though I don't see an RFV it doesn't seem like an overly mature hay, seems like it should be more digestible than not.

                    As far as the minerals and all that, you'd need to use a balancing program like FeedXL.com if you wanted to be sure the hay was covering all of the bases. Comparing it to mine, which isn't saying a whole lot , it looks pretty low across the board in terms of minerals, its about half of the average of what my hay tests at. Of course my "average" isn't the gold standard or anything
                    Hope this is helpful to you.
                    Being terrible at something is the first step to being truly great at it. Struggle is the evidence of progress.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by buck22 View Post
                      I'm no hay guru, but I had a hard time reading the analysis. ESC, Starch, Lysine and RFV seem to be missing, or are labeled something I don't recognize.

                      The WSC seems on the high side, or at least I consider it high given my experiences. I would guess based on this that the NSCs would be high, probably higher than I would feel comfortable feeding my fat horses, I work hard to stay below 12.

                      Protein seems about right for an average horse in light/no work, not overly high or low.

                      ADF doesn't seem crazy high, so even though I don't see an RFV it doesn't seem like an overly mature hay, seems like it should be more digestible than not.

                      As far as the minerals and all that, you'd need to use a balancing program like FeedXL.com if you wanted to be sure the hay was covering all of the bases. Comparing it to mine, which isn't saying a whole lot , it looks pretty low across the board in terms of minerals, its about half of the average of what my hay tests at. Of course my "average" isn't the gold standard or anything
                      Hope this is helpful to you.
                      Very helpful. Thank you so much.
                      I've had to look up each thing to even see what it is never mind what it should be. I think that's over my head. I'll see what I can do if anything with the feed program if not maybe I need to try to find someone who does this sort of thing to just do it for me.

                      The hay isn't mature hay, it's fairly fine, no seed.
                      The horses are getting CA minerals but I don't know enough to know if I should even be doing that with this particular hay.

                      CA TRACE PER 2 OZ (Daily fed)
                      Copper 175 mg.
                      Zinc 500 mg.
                      selenium 2 mg
                      iodine 2 mg
                      biotin 20 mg
                      vitamin A 15,000 iu
                      vitamin E 750 IU
                      lysine 7 g
                      Methionine 2.5 g

                      Anyhow thank you for your input, Buck, it was helpful.
                      You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sorry, but I don't like your lab.
                        Bermuda can have significant amounts of starch in leafy tissue if grown in hot, sunny conditions. Not having that information makes it hard to figure if its OK for those prone to getting too fat.

                        Plugging everything into a spread sheet is time consuming and you have to do it yourself, find someone charitable that you can trust, or pay someone to do it.
                        Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Glad I was some help.

                          You'll like FeedXL.com, you sign up for a membership (pretty cheap for just a month), send the company this hay analysis (the customer service is FANTASTIC, mine are always up within 24 hours), and then set up a profile for your horse and put in how much you're feeding. You get an instant report on your horse's nutrition profile, based on the NRC guidelines, and tweeked for your horse's particulars like age and current weight.

                          Obviously there is no substitution for looking at a horse's condition to gauge health, but this program will let you know anything glaring.

                          To give you some idea about FeedXL

                          My hay report looks like this
                          (this is old but every year my hay is pretty consistent)

                          If I put in Dobbin - a 900# Saddlebred, mature and not in work, BSC of 5 and general easy keeper with no diseases and dry lotted - and feed him 15# daily of the hay in the report above, his nutritional profile looks like this

                          Now that I see what he's missing, I can find a supplement that covers just that. FeedXL is really comprehensive, so you can "shop" feeds and supplements right there. Also nice is the pricing calculator so you can figure out what is the best bargain.

                          FeedXL helped me realize that my hay is way high enough in protein so I could drop the ration balancer I was feeding my horses for nutrition in favor for a multivitamin, and I saved $2 per day doing so.

                          Its a handy program when you want to figure something like this out.
                          Being terrible at something is the first step to being truly great at it. Struggle is the evidence of progress.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by pj View Post
                            It would be appreciated.

                            Wondering what you think of this bermuda grass hay as the sole diet for an easy keepers maintance diet?

                            hay analysis
                            http://i45.tinypic.com/21kdunt.jpg
                            your maintance CP % should be 11%
                            your ADF is ok, but your NDF is so high that it WILL limit his intake from the lignin and thus he will simply not eat and create the dreaded hay belly from poor hay.
                            you really need an RFV amount but I imagine it is well below 100 which is our cut off for horse edible hay...prob closer to 70
                            Tamara
                            Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                            I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Tamara in TN View Post
                              your maintance CP % should be 11%
                              your ADF is ok, but your NDF is so high that it WILL limit his intake from the lignin and thus he will simply not eat and create the dreaded hay belly from poor hay.
                              you really need an RFV amount but I imagine it is well below 100 which is our cut off for horse edible hay...prob closer to 70
                              Tamara
                              Tamara, how kind of you to take time to respond. Thank you.
                              I don't see anything that says RFV on the report. It does say:
                              Variety: Coastal
                              Relative f orage Q uality( RFQ): 104.1
                              Dry Matter Intake( DMl):2 .38% Live BodyW eight
                              RationF ormulation:N o

                              I wonder if the RFQ would be the same as RFV (Realative forage value?)

                              LOL guess it's pretty obvious that I'm going to have to find someone to do this for me. Any suggestions from anyone as to someone who does this and doesn't charge an arm and a leg?
                              You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by buck22 View Post
                                Glad I was some help.

                                You'll like FeedXL.com, you sign up for a membership (pretty cheap for just a month), send the company this hay analysis (the customer service is FANTASTIC, mine are always up within 24 hours), and then set up a profile for your horse and put in how much you're feeding. You get an instant report on your horse's nutrition profile, based on the NRC guidelines, and tweeked for your horse's particulars like age and current weight.

                                Obviously there is no substitution for looking at a horse's condition to gauge health, but this program will let you know anything glaring.

                                To give you some idea about FeedXL

                                My hay report looks like this
                                (this is old but every year my hay is pretty consistent)

                                If I put in Dobbin - a 900# Saddlebred, mature and not in work, BSC of 5 and general easy keeper with no diseases and dry lotted - and feed him 15# daily of the hay in the report above, his nutritional profile looks like this

                                Now that I see what he's missing, I can find a supplement that covers just that. FeedXL is really comprehensive, so you can "shop" feeds and supplements right there. Also nice is the pricing calculator so you can figure out what is the best bargain.

                                FeedXL helped me realize that my hay is way high enough in protein so I could drop the ration balancer I was feeding my horses for nutrition in favor for a multivitamin, and I saved $2 per day doing so.

                                Its a handy program when you want to figure something like this out.
                                Thanks again, Buck. I "think" the best thing for me to do might be to get my own analysis (the one I have is from the hay guy, I thought sure it would do) and then hire someone to tell me how to balance this out. Probaby doing it this way would help me keep what little sanity I have left.

                                I found your reports interesting and they appear to be pretty through. Thank you for sharing.
                                You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by pj View Post
                                  Tamara, how kind of you to take time to respond. Thank you.
                                  I don't see anything that says RFV on the report. It does say:
                                  Variety: Coastal
                                  Relative f orage Q uality( RFQ): 104.1
                                  Dry Matter Intake( DMl):2 .38% Live BodyW eight
                                  RationF ormulation:N o

                                  I wonder if the RFQ would be the same as RFV (Realative forage value?)

                                  LOL guess it's pretty obvious that I'm going to have to find someone to do this for me. Any suggestions from anyone as to someone who does this and doesn't charge an arm and a leg?
                                  http://gage.unl.edu/web/gage/RFVvsRFQ

                                  the DMI is a telling thing as well...it basically says that your horse will need 38 lbs of hay per day period every day...that amount comes close if not passes,what a horse can eat with that NDF...he'll get full at about 15 pounds and simply not be able to send any "thru the pipe" fast enough

                                  the result will be a hay bellied horse who even with full choice hay simply starves to death

                                  Tamara
                                  Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                  I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Tamara do you test all of your hay? Some of it?

                                    I so wish we could find 'tested hay' as a common part of horse hay

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      yes when there is time...some lady wanted me to test 50 tons to fit in this itty bitty tiny window of "wonderfulness"

                                      I told her she'd really better shop elsewhere as I was not buying 50 tons of hay to then let her decide if it fit her magic ruby slipper, then to be stuck with it afterward

                                      Himself always set a parameter of quality and then let the horse people decide for themselves if it suited them

                                      not the other way around...one year we dropped about $8,000 on $18 tests...I'm sure D! loved us that year.never again however

                                      Tamara
                                      Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                      I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Tamara in TN View Post
                                        http://gage.unl.edu/web/gage/RFVvsRFQ

                                        the DMI is a telling thing as well...it basically says that your horse will need 38 lbs of hay per day period every day...that amount comes close if not passes,what a horse can eat with that NDF...he'll get full at about 15 pounds and simply not be able to send any "thru the pipe" fast enough

                                        the result will be a hay bellied horse who even with full choice hay simply starves to death

                                        Tamara
                                        Good grief!! I've got a years worth of this hay in the barn!!
                                        I'm really shocked as I've gotten the hay from the same source I have for years.
                                        Other years, hay, a couple of cups of feed twice a day got me way too fat horses.
                                        Seem perfectly healthy, glossy coats, plenty of stamina, etc.
                                        Guess it's back to the drawing board for what I'm going to do. I sure do hate to put them on ANY grain, soy, or whatever. They've been so fat it's been really hard to get them down to a decent weight and I don't want to have to do that again.
                                        YIKES! Woe is me.

                                        Thanks, Tamara, everybody.
                                        You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

                                        Comment

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