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Horse Grain: More sugar means more fat???

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  • Horse Grain: More sugar means more fat???

    I am trying to understand someone's poitn of view on horse feed.

    I mentioned that Blue Seal Pacer is 46% NSC.
    An acqaintance on facebook writes that she used to feed Pacer, and the local vet school uses it "They [the vet school] only have 3 really old horses lol its a good feed for seniors who can't keep weight or babies who are growing too fast."

    I responded with: "I don't think I'd be feeding babies a grain with that much sugar..."

    Her response: "More sugar is more fat for babies. Most breeding farms feed 18% sweet feed for that reason. But vet school uses blue seal bc it's free I think "

    Can someone explain the "more sugar is more fat"?

    Its my understanding that more sugar does not necessarily mean more fat...otherwise, all high fat feeds would also have high sugar, and they don't.

    Help!
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

  • #2
    Maybe body fat due to calories not being used, but "fat" as in oils, etc.....? Um, nope.
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      "Sugar= calories, calories= fat learned it in my nutrition class. High fat feeds use a lot of soy and other natural fat builders which is why halter horses beef up on soy. You don't want a baby to beef up too much or a senior horse"

      Then I linked to an article about how high sugar diets affect a horse's health.

      Her response was:
      "So to simplify it. There's natural sugars and added sugars. Added sugars are bad that's what goes on labels, natural sugars are good. Beet pulp, certain oats, and other ingredients in broodmare feed are all natural sugars. Molasses is a...n added sugar. You need to break down how much fat content comes from each. Natural sugar is actual a natural way to bulk up. Try cutting all sugar especially fruits and carrots for 2 weeks and see how much weight you drop"
      "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

      Comment


      • #4
        My Cliff's notes version goes like this, more sugar makes more fat.

        It isn't "equal to" fat and it sure isn't good for the system in the long run, since excessive sugar is implicated in the development of diabetes and IR. Not to mention laminitis. Sugars aren't as calorically dense as fat, but they are digested more rapidly.

        So I guess for a baby, which hasn't had it's system insulted by years of excess sugars, it's no big deal, yet, and the baby will grow nice and fat and do it quickly.
        Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
        Incredible Invisible

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
          . . .
          Her response was:
          "So to simplify it. There's natural sugars and added sugars. Added sugars are bad that's what goes on labels, natural sugars are good. Beet pulp, certain oats, and other ingredients in broodmare feed are all natural sugars. Molasses is a...n added sugar. You need to break down how much fat content comes from each. Natural sugar is actual a natural way to bulk up. Try cutting all sugar especially fruits and carrots for 2 weeks and see how much weight you drop"
          Ooookaaay. I think your friend is past educating.
          Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
          Incredible Invisible

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          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by ReSomething View Post
            Ooookaaay. I think your friend is past educating.
            Can you generate a response to that? Because I am not sciency/vet educated, and I want to respond because I definitely do not agree with her line of thinking. She keeps up with the rebuttal. LOL!
            "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              THis was my response to that:

              If you have a horse that is IR, ANY sugar is not good. You don't need sugar in a grain to add weight, that is why they have high fat grains with low sugar contents. In those grains, the calories are coming from fat, not sugar. With the range of low sugar feeds out there, 46% is off the charts


              She responded that natural sugar is in EVERYTHING.

              To which I replied:
              Natural sugar does occur, but you'd still want to monitor how much, because natural doesn't always mean "safe" (like in a case of a horse with insulin resistance). Bottom line is that a high sugar diet, especially over a period of time, is not a healthy diet for a horse.

              I'm sure she's generating some response now...
              "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ReSomething View Post

                So I guess for a baby, which hasn't had it's system insulted by years of excess sugars, it's no big deal, yet, and the baby will grow nice and fat and do it quickly.
                I don't want "nice and fat" babies. Young horses shouldn't be overweight at all.

                Also, to the OP's friend - 18% is a protein content, which has nothing to do with sugars and starches. Alfalfa, for example, is around 18% protein and is very low sugar/starch. High protein, from what I understand, is an essential part of a solid young horse diet.
                "Why would anybody come here if they had a pony? Who leaves a country packed with ponies to come to a non-pony country? It doesn't make sense!"

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                • #9
                  A big slug of sugar leads to secretion of a big slug of insulin. Insulin in high levels promotes the formation and laying down of fat.

                  Is your friend named caballus, by chance?
                  Click here before you buy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                    But vet school uses blue seal bc it's free I think "
                    And people think all vets have GOOD reasons for feeding what they do...

                    I doubt it's free though, and if it is, I would wonder what else is going on.
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ReSomething View Post
                      So I guess for a baby, which hasn't had it's system insulted by years of excess sugars, it's no big deal, yet, and the baby will grow nice and fat and do it quickly.
                      It IS a big deal, since excess weight, especially when it's put on quickly, is one of the main factors in causing physitis issues. It doesn't matter whether it's from feeding a lot of sugar, or simply too many low-sugar calories. Fat is fat and it's not healthy, and it's extra not-healthy on young growing creatures.

                      I actually just read an abstract of a study done on TBs being prepped for sales. Those who were born later and "fed up" for the most weight gain and growth quickly had higher incidents of DOD issues. Those who were "fed up" for a steadier growth/weight gain over a longer period of time, even when they ended up in the same place, had fewer issues.
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I guess technically, she is right more sugar does equal more fat, but just not in the way she is thinking about it.

                        Excess sugar that your body doesn't used get stored as glycogen and in the liver some of the excess gets turned into triacylglycerol aka fat.

                        But saying that, I don't think its the proper or healthy way to try to make an animal fat/put on weight. I agree with what has been said above.
                        I love cats, I love every single cat....
                        So anyway I am a cat lover
                        And I love to run.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          "Sugar is fatty. Hate to tell you. Why do you think kids are so fat these days"

                          She is making my head hurt.

                          This is my response to that:
                          "There is a difference between calories from fat & calories from sugar. Both provide calories but they are not the same. & since a high sugar diet is not a healthy diet for a horse, if a horse needs calories its better to provide those calories from fat."

                          her rebuttal:
                          It's better yes but it's cheaper with sugar. That's why people use high sugar feeds, it's cheaper. Breeding farms and vet schools use it bc it's cheaper.

                          And my response:
                          Sugar provides calories. Fat provides calories. Sugar is not "fatty" nor is it the same as fat. Sugar will make people fat because it provides calories that said person is not burning off, thereby causing weight gain. I sure hope your nutrition class didn't teach you that sugar is fat; that would've been a waste of tuition. As for the grain, its called education. It may be cheaper, but I bet its not cheaper than managing a horse with IR, or long term care of a horse that founders.


                          She went to "vet tech" school....
                          "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                            Is your friend named caballus, by chance?
                            LOL, nope!
                            "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You're arguing with someone who has no desires to become educated, and you will only end up stooping to their level

                              Using something because it's cheaper is a piss-poor reason to use it if that's the only reason.

                              She obviously skipped any class on nutrition, way back to grade school, or she didn't pay attention, or she simply failed to grasp simple concepts.

                              And if her "vet tech school" is teaching her these things about sugar and fat, then I rest my case when I constantly say that MOST vets know squat about nutrition.
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                She got "tired of arguing" with me and I haven't heard back from her since.
                                "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  There is a difference between calories from fat & calories from sugar. Both provide calories but they are not the same
                                  Actually a calorie is a calorie, but there are more than TWICE AS MANY, gram for gram, in fat as there are in sugar (9 calories per gram vs. 4 calories per gram).

                                  And if her "vet tech school" is teaching her these things about sugar and fat, then I rest my case when I constantly say that MOST vets know squat about nutrition.
                                  What does vet tech school have to do with veterinary school?
                                  Click here before you buy.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    "they are not the same" was referring to the fact that sugar is not fat, and fat is not sugar.

                                    She had said that sugar = calories, and calories = fat. Thereby meaning that sugar = fat.
                                    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Were talking about horses here, not humming birds.

                                      DOD (Development Orthopedic Disease) is a primary concern of over feeding sugars to young horses.

                                      If you want to find the basis for any animals diet, look back to what it's ancestors were eating in the Pleistocene.

                                      Grasses and plants.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                                        High fat feeds use a lot of soy and other natural fat builders which is why halter horses beef up on soy.
                                        What on earth does that mean?
                                        What is a "natural fat builder"?
                                        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

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