• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Preventative Hoofcare

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Preventative Hoofcare

    Preventative Hoofcare goes a long, long way in preventing situations like this:



    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

  • #2
    So, Gwen, how about a bit more information including the length of time in the shoeing cycle. etc. Also, what, preventative measures would you have taken to stop the solar abscessing from occurring? How do you know that no measures were undertaken by the previous attending? Also, in the 'after' photos of the left front, the horse appears unable to load/get its heels on the ground. Do you consider this to be acceptable?

    Those photos would seem to me to be indicative more of proper vs improper hoof care rather than preventative hoof care. But without more detailed information, we'll never know.

    While the b/4 photos are of the type that is so often used by a certain segment of hoof care providers to condemn (or is that "damn with faint praise"), en mass, farriers and the use of horseshoes, without more details, they only appeal to the folks who lack the intelligence and/or knowledge to see them for what they are. Strasser, et al became quite adept at using that type of photo to advance her agenda. Hither to now, I've always considered you better than than......

    Comment


    • #3
      How about any decent hoof care at all... how long had those shoes been on there?

      Comment


      • #4
        Geez, it's called getting their feet done.

        Is this news to anyone?

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          OK ... typed out a whole history for here and internet blew. Grrrrrrr. Let's start again.
          25 yo Arabian. 3 years chronic founder. 1 year ago new farrier (and this is NOT a farrier bashing thing here either so please do not take it as such!) ... called in to try to 'fix' former farrier's work of 2 years. Vet and Farrier working with owner as 'team'. 2nd Farrier was trying to bring heels down but had rockers on all 4's with 1" heel wedges (???????!!!!) Rads taken in March http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6.../Image1-33.jpg (will post shortly after I get yesterday's rads. Will post as 'comparisons') showing both fronts. Both fronts perforated. Both fronts knuckling over when trying to walk (drastic toe first landing then knuckling over onto fronts of hooves/pasterns). Beginning of June owner was advised by both farrier and vet to euthanize. Owner wanted to try (her gut was telling her to try barefoot) barefoot before euthanizing. Farrier referred her to me. June 28th first visit and initial trim. Horse was mostly recumbant. Owner walking daily but that's all the walking he would do. Eating normally, drinking normally, urine and manure normal. His 'spirit' is strong and remains so. Owner treating perforations with ThrushX and soaking in Epsom salt/H20. RF perforation to middle of hoof; LF perf less. Bandaging, wrapping and booting hooves. (Even with the shoes still on -- I removed the shoes, fronts only 1st visit; rear shoes 2nd visit 1 week later, July 5th) Both hooves putrid with necrotic tissue (could have knocked me over with a feather from the nasty, horrific odor!). Former farrier had torched the hooves. Horn like petrified wood. (4 hours to trim the 2 hooves minimally in the initial visit) After initial visit owner soaking in Calendula/H20 and flushing with Cal. oil then bandaging/wrapping/booting daily. Horse remarkably more comfortable after removal of shoes and trim. Less time spent lying down and more grazing. Subsequent visit July 5th, removed rear shoes and trimmed. Comfortable on rears. Trimming weekly ... yesterday was visit with vet showing both fronts balanced and sole growth of 1 - 1.5 cm. No infection evident. Horse is now mostly up and grazing. No knuckling over. DDFT's on both still tight but ROM is helping. Heel first landing on both hooves. Can stand square and more comfortable on the RF than on the LF.

          Initial visit 6-282012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-zRs...ature=youtu.be

          3rd trim July 11th: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C39CD...ature=youtu.be

          Will post yesterday's when loaded up.

          RF heels are now, as of yesterday, right where they belong and this hoof will now be trimmed again in 3 weeks/4 weeks. LF still needs weekly work. Have not entirely gotten rid of laminae wedge, especially in LF ... need *some* connectivity while the hoof is growing out.

          EDUCATION!!!! EDUCATION!!! EDUCATION!!! Farriers, vets, owners. We need MORE EDUCATION out there -- people need to avail themselves of it. No hoof, no horse.
          --Gwen <><
          "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
          http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
            Also, in the 'after' photos of the left front, the horse appears unable to load/get its heels on the ground. Do you consider this to be acceptable?
            Forgot to respond to this. Horse IS loading heel ... but because of tight DDFT from long standing contraction will rest it. Or ... I think in this case he went to move the hoof as I took the shot,. But he's able to land heel first on both fronts now.
            --Gwen <><
            "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
            http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
              So, Gwen, how about a bit more information including the length of time in the shoeing cycle. etc.
              I was told every 8 weeks. Both vet and farrier were in attendance with this horse. (Vet was changed in March when initial rads were taken).
              Also, what, preventative measures would you have taken to stop the solar abscessing from occurring?
              Proper trimming at regular 4 - 6 week intervals. And I don't care whether shod or not ... the T.R.I.M. is the essential factor in prevention.
              How do you know that no measures were undertaken by the previous attending?
              Simply from the form of the hooves ... I'm sorry but to find such long heels on a horse that has been tended to regularly by a 'knowledgeable' hoofcare person (doesn't matter farrier or trimmer) ... is totally UNACCEPTABLE to me. There is NO excuse for that ... its sheer ignorance on behalf of the hoofcare provider AND the attending vet.
              Also, in the 'after' photos of the left front, the horse appears unable to load/get its heels on the ground. Do you consider this to be acceptable?
              answered in post above.

              Those photos would seem to me to be indicative more of proper vs improper hoof care rather than preventative hoof care. But without more detailed information, we'll never know.
              The point is ... PROPER HOOFCARE IS PREVENTATIVE HOOFCARE. (*NOT yelling -- emphasizing *grin* I don't yell.)

              While the b/4 photos are of the type that is so often used by a certain segment of hoof care providers to condemn (or is that "damn with faint praise"), en mass, farriers and the use of horseshoes, without more details, they only appeal to the folks who lack the intelligence and/or knowledge to see them for what they are. Strasser, et al became quite adept at using that type of photo to advance her agenda. Hither to now, I've always considered you better than than......
              What I"m pointing out is ignorant care. Again, and again, and again ... doesn't matter WHO - whether farrier, trimmer or veterinaria - whomever is caring for horses' hooves needs to have a solid education of the anatomy and physiology of the equine digit and lower limb as well as a solid base of education in hoof pathologies!!! Education. And education for the OWNERS ... Owners need to stop relying on their 'professionals' so much and educate themselves a bit on how to take care of their horses and what 'signs' that things might be going awry. E.D.U.C.A.T.I.O.N. Not the "I'm the professional and who are you to question my judgement !!??" ... But, instead, "here. Let me explain what I'm doing for your horse and why." ...
              --Gwen <><
              "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
              http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

              Comment


              • #8
                I have 0 experience with severe founder cases -- how much better can you expect him to get? Does he have Cushing's? He looks godawful.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                  I have 0 experience with severe founder cases -- how much better can you expect him to get? Does he have Cushing's? He looks godawful.
                  Horses are amazing critters and since the hooves are their #1 survival tool, they can, given the correct parameters, heal VERY quickly. -- Vet and I agree that he should be just fine as in 100% recovery. We're concerned, of course, about the strain the DDFTs are under but slow walking and ROM stretches/exercises are helping with that. No, he doesn't have IR or Cushings. His body is thin from being under so much pain for so long. But he's actually put on a bit of weight in the last couple of weeks. Fur is shiny, shiny. Eyes are acutely bright. Everything is 100%+ except for his hooves. I'm expecting that his owner will, once again, be able to go for a nice, leisurely, walk around her farm on him (100 acres) in probably a couple of months.
                  --Gwen <><
                  "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                  http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Why did he founder?

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                      Why did he founder?
                      No idea of the original cause.
                      --Gwen <><
                      "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                      http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So neglect is bad for horses, then?
                        Click here before you buy.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                          So neglect is bad for horses, then?
                          ??? Not understanding your intent with this question?
                          --Gwen <><
                          "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                          http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not understanding what routine, timely and correct hoof care would not have accomplished that "preventative" hoof care would. Nor the difference between the two.

                            Seems like a pretty clear case of a horse whose feet have been very badly looked after. From which I am forced to also conclude (no hoof, no horse) that the rest of the horse was also very badly neglected as well.

                            This is an owner problem, not a vet or farrier problem. My vet has stories of neglect and ignorance that would curl HAIR. Good advice from a vet or farrier, when ignored, is the same as bad advice.

                            How anyone could let a horse go on and on like that for months . . . pitiful.

                            Glad you are making him more comfortable. The owner needs a shovel applied forcefully to the side of his/her head.
                            Click here before you buy.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by deltawave View Post

                              This is an owner problem, not a vet or farrier problem. My vet has stories of neglect and ignorance that would curl HAIR. Good advice from a vet or farrier, when ignored, is the same as bad advice.
                              Except she stated that the horse was under regular veterinary/farrier care. And now, thankfully, those two professionals have been removed from the case.

                              I've also seen some pretty awful hooves on horses that were under routine vet/farrier care; the lack of knowledge is just downright *scary* sometimes. And, YES, we owners do need to educate ourselves so we can make the right decisions for our horses, but geez, can't these "professionals" get some education as well?

                              I, too, am NOT on an anti-farrier rant. I *am* certainly anti- any farrier/trimmer who would leave hooves looking like that. I'm sure none of the farriers on this board have horses under their care with hooves that look like that, either.

                              I'm happy that the horse is now in more capable hands and is getting the care he needs.
                              Topline Leather -- Bespoke, handwoven browbands & accessories customized with Swarovski crystals, gemstones, & glass seed beads. The original crystal braid & crystal spike browbands!

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Actually, the owner is very diligent at this time to soak, bandage, wrap, walk, etc. etc... I think many people depend upon their hoofcare providers and their veterinarians to "know" what the hell they are doing and trust and respect their education/experience/(lack of???). I have NO idea why this horse was allowed to grow hooves like this. The 1st farrier who allowed the horse to get like this to begin with (the horse was seen every 8 - 10 weeks; normal scheduling in this area) except that maybe he just didn't know what was going on. Didn't recognize the signs of laminitis and then didn't know how to address the rapidly growing hooves. I'm just speculating as I really don't know. I don't understand the reason for rocker shoes and 1" wedges on heels that long on hooves that were already in dire condition. I do know the farrier who was attending this horse prior to my being called in.

                                One of my beefs is that when someone doesn't know what the hell to do then tuck your damn egos away and ask for help from someone who does know before allowing a horse to get in this condition to begin with! It's NOT just owner fault ... it's the fault of the 'team' of farriers and vet. The present attending vet knows my work and we are able to work as a true team with the owner so hopefully we can get this horse sound again. The longest healing will be with the soft tissue (DDFT and Suspensory Ligs) that have been under such stress for so long. The and teaching this horse HOW TO WALK again NORMALLY. Again, it boils down to proper education -- something that seems to be lacking far too much.
                                --Gwen <><
                                "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                                http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  PS ... "routine, timely and correct hoof care", DW, IS preventative as is the husbandry, diet and work/exercise/movement. The whole ball of wax. CORRECT is a keyword in this instance. And that falls under the category of *education* as well as skill.
                                  --Gwen <><
                                  "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                                  http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Code:
                                    Horses are amazing critters and since the hooves are their #1 survival tool, they can, given the correct parameters, heal VERY quickly. -- Vet and I agree that he should be just fine as in 100% recovery
                                    . Given my experiences with MANY severe, chronic laminitis.founder cases at the stage this one is, IMO vet and you are both wrong. P3 is too sunk, horse in in involuntary chronic flexor muscle contraction , and is old. That is three UNFIXABLE strikes.
                                    We're concerned, of course, about the strain the DDFTs are under but slow walking and ROM stretches/exercises are helping with that.
                                    AGAIN have worked on LOTS of them who had gotten to this stage and the do not recover. All the walking, accupuncture, massage, muscle reelaxers, and stretching in the world will eventually fail to release those muscles enough to correct those feet.
                                    No, he doesn't have IR or Cushings. His body is thin from being under so much pain for so long
                                    . I bet his cortosol levels are high though from the stress and pain. But he's actually put on a bit of weight in the last couple of weeks. Fur is shiny, shiny. Eyes are acutely bright.
                                    Everything is 100%+ except for his hooves. I'm expecting that his owner will, once again, be able to go for a nice, leisurely, walk around her farm on him (100 acres) in probably a couple of months.
                                    your dreaming,IMO. Let's see him after a couple more months with a longer video than five or ten seconds.
                                    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
                                    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
                                    www.hoofcareonline.com

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Patty Stiller View Post
                                      Given my experiences with MANY severe, chronic laminitis.founder cases at the stage this one is, IMO vet and you are both wrong. P3 is too sunk, horse in in involuntary chronic flexor muscle contraction , and is old. That is three UNFIXABLE strikes.
                                      Well, we'll see, won't we.
                                      AGAIN have worked on LOTS of them who had gotten to this stage and the do not recover.
                                      While this is the worst case I've worked on, I've worked on other penetrated founders and all have recovered nicely.
                                      All the walking, accupuncture, massage, muscle reelaxers, and stretching in the world will eventually fail to release those muscles enough to correct those feet.
                                      The right front is already 'corrected' in terms of balance, heel height, etc. as per rads (which I will post when I get them) -- that one we're leaving be at this time for while with no more weekly trimming. The LF is well on its way. But the HOOVES are a bit different from the muscles (which can be remodeled and changed), the tendons and the ligaments. We'll see on that, as well. Already he is walking heel first without buckling at the pastern. He is obviously much more comfortable. So, again, we'll see.
                                      I bet his cortosol levels are high though from the stress and pain.
                                      I agree.
                                      -- But he's actually put on a bit of weight in the last couple of weeks. Fur is shiny, shiny. Eyes are acutely bright. -- your dreaming,IMO.
                                      Really? OK.
                                      Let's see him after a couple more months with a longer video than five or ten seconds.
                                      And you will.
                                      --Gwen <><
                                      "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                                      http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Seems rather heartless and selfish to let the horse go on in that much pain personally.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X