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Any experience with Pentaussie?

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  • Any experience with Pentaussie?

    I know people on this board have used Pentosan and are thrilled with the results. Unfortunately my vet does not offer Pentosan but does now offer Pentaussie. She is thinking it may be helpful to use to extend the effects of yearly hock injections.

    What are you paying per dose for Pentaussie? Is the dosing the same as for Pentosan?

    Any experiences or info you can share would be greatly appreciated.

  • #2
    Pent Aussie is pentosan. It's about $80 a bottle (2 doses)

    Erica
    Erica H. Max
    Fire Hjorner Farm
    Breeders and Importers of Danish Warmbloods

    www.danishwarmblood.com

    Comment


    • #3
      The Pentaussie that my vet is selling is ONE dose for $80. Erica, please check again. It is the same concentration as the IV pentosan gold that NatureVet sells, but is administered IM and is manufactured as a surgical levage in Maryland. The dose that is bottled up (12 cc of 125 mg/ml pentosan and 100mg/ml acetyl d glucosamine) is the dose for an 1,100 pound horse.

      For some reason, the vets feel safer prescribing Pentaussie than a compounded Pentosan, but really their malpractice insurance won't cover either. I buy the Pentosan compounded by Wedgewood pharmaceuticals, 250mg/ml, 50 ml bottle. That way, I can give my 1,500 lb mare the dose she needs (3mg/kg is current research and for my mare that would be an 8cc dose rather than the 6cc doses that are individually packaged). Remember, alot of this stuff is developed for use on racetracks where the horses weight 1,000 pounds or so. If you don't find adequan or legend or pentosan effective, perhaps it is because you are giving too small a dose for the weight of your horse.

      I think the vets have much more of a risk prescribing the wrong dose of an off label drug than they do prescribing the correct (according to current research)dose of a compounded drug, but that's just me. BTW, I give my mare a weekly shot of acetyl d glucosamine, compounded, at 100 mg per 100 lbs (so she gets 1,500 mg). The racetrack vets are generally prescribing a weekly dose of 1,000 mg for their clients. No science to it really, but it seems to work. The glucosamine when compounded with Pentosan is given at 2,400 mg. I also buy the 250mg/ml acetyl d glucosamine from Wedgewood, 100 ml bottle.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cowgirl View Post
        The Pentaussie that my vet is selling is ONE dose for $80. Erica, please check again. It is the same concentration as the IV pentosan gold that NatureVet sells, but is administered IM and is manufactured as a surgical levage in Maryland. The dose that is bottled up (12 cc of 125 mg/ml pentosan and 100mg/ml acetyl d glucosamine) is the dose for an 1,100 pound horse.

        For some reason, the vets feel safer prescribing Pentaussie than a compounded Pentosan, but really their malpractice insurance won't cover either. I buy the Pentosan compounded by Wedgewood pharmaceuticals, 250mg/ml, 50 ml bottle. That way, I can give my 1,500 lb mare the dose she needs (3mg/kg is current research and for my mare that would be an 8cc dose rather than the 6cc doses that are individually packaged). Remember, alot of this stuff is developed for use on racetracks where the horses weight 1,000 pounds or so. If you don't find adequan or legend or pentosan effective, perhaps it is because you are giving too small a dose for the weight of your horse.

        I think the vets have much more of a risk prescribing the wrong dose of an off label drug than they do prescribing the correct (according to current research)dose of a compounded drug, but that's just me. BTW, I give my mare a weekly shot of acetyl d glucosamine, compounded, at 100 mg per 100 lbs (so she gets 1,500 mg). The racetrack vets are generally prescribing a weekly dose of 1,000 mg for their clients. No science to it really, but it seems to work. The glucosamine when compounded with Pentosan is given at 2,400 mg. I also buy the 250mg/ml acetyl d glucosamine from Wedgewood, 100 ml bottle.
        Hard telling what the vets particular reason is but the reason most won't write a script for Pentosan is that it is very illegal for a vet to write that script.

        Comment


        • #5
          Just a thought, but doesn't the whole 'legal' or 'illegal' issue really depend on what state you live in? In SC my vet gets us Wedgewood compounsed pentosan, and she is not mentioning any issue with it being illegal here...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
            Hard telling what the vets particular reason is but the reason most won't write a script for Pentosan is that it is very illegal for a vet to write that script.
            That is at least the second time you've made this statement. You said the same thing here -

            http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=325262

            Where did you find the law that makes it illegal to write a script for compounded pentosan poysulfate sodium?

            The Wedgewood website is very transparent about what the product does and how it is used -

            http://www.wedgewoodpetrx.com/learni...inary-use.html

            I've been ordering different products from Wedgewood for years, and in my state (where Wedgewood is also located) I haven't found any vet who is hesistant to write a script. Wedgewood also compounds drugs for chemotherapy and other human uses for some of the top medical centers in the area. You'd think they have to much at stake to peddle illegal drugs

            Comment


            • #7
              I find it hard to believe it is illegal if it being sold by vets and Wedgewood?

              Comment


              • #8
                I believe the issue is whether it's being used consistent with an FDA approved purpose. I got some pushback as well from a vet that exclusively deals with horse show clients (so not a backyard vet) and it took some "i can prescribe this and not that, blah blah" for a while before I got something.
                www.quiethavenfarm.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Discobold View Post
                  That is at least the second time you've made this statement. You said the same thing here -

                  http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=325262

                  Where did you find the law that makes it illegal to write a script for compounded pentosan poysulfate sodium?

                  The Wedgewood website is very transparent about what the product does and how it is used -

                  http://www.wedgewoodpetrx.com/learni...inary-use.html

                  I've been ordering different products from Wedgewood for years, and in my state (where Wedgewood is also located) I haven't found any vet who is hesistant to write a script. Wedgewood also compounds drugs for chemotherapy and other human uses for some of the top medical centers in the area. You'd think they have to much at stake to peddle illegal drugs
                  If the drug available without compounding then you can not have it compounded. The law is very black and white about that. That's why most vets will not write that script, there are other reasons also.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                    If the drug available without compounding then you can not have it compounded. The law is very black and white about that. That's why most vets will not write that script, there are other reasons also.
                    The only FDA approved, non-compounded version of pentosan I could find is a drug called Elmiron, which is available in capsule form and is prescribed for human bladder pain and discomfort associated with interstitial cystitis.

                    If there is an FDA approved, non-compounded, brand name version of pentosan available for veterinary use, I would be curious to know the brand name and where you can purchase it.

                    You say there are "other reasons" why a vet will not write a script for pentosan. What are they?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tarynls View Post
                      The only FDA approved, non-compounded version of pentosan I could find is a drug called Elmiron, which is available in capsule form and is prescribed for human bladder pain and discomfort associated with interstitial cystitis.

                      If there is an FDA approved, non-compounded, brand name version of pentosan available for veterinary use, I would be curious to know the brand name and where you can purchase it.

                      You say there are "other reasons" why a vet will not write a script for pentosan. What are they?
                      Well, the obvious, that it is not FDA approved!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                        Well, the obvious, that it is not FDA approved!
                        Well, pentosan IS FDA approved. See above. It is FDA approved for bladder conditions in humans.

                        There are many, many medications that are NOT FDA approved for their intended purpose OR in a different species. It's called using a medication off-label. And when you use a medication off-label, specifically in a different species (see below) - yes, it generally needs to be compounded.

                        FWIW, my personal vet works mostly at the track...where medications are regulated on a MUCH stricter level than those dispensed to your average Joe horse owner. And yes, my vet was the one that SUGGESTED pentosan for my horse. I highly doubt he would risk losing his track license (as that's where most of his income comes from) and he certainly would not risk losing his veterinary license.

                        Considering he stocks the compounded pentosan on his truck - and on the track, his truck is subject to random search by state officials at any time (and yes, it has been searched), one would think compounded pentosan is just fine. My state certainly doesn't have a problem with it.

                        In fact, my horse was recently hospitalzed for a nephrosplenic entrapment. He was administered phenylephrine to shrink his spleen. (It's also used topically in the equine eye for certain conditions.)

                        Per PubMed: "Phenylephrine is used to relieve nasal discomfort caused by colds, allergies, and hay fever. It is also used to relieve sinus congestion and pressure. Phenylephrine will relieve symptoms but will not treat the cause of the symptoms or speed recovery. Phenylephrine is in a class of medications called nasal decongestants. It works by reducing swelling of the blood vessels in the nasal passages."

                        You may know phenylephrine as the over-the-counter human medications "Sudafed PE", "Dimetapp Cold Drops" and others. It's also an ingredient in Preperation-H (hemmordial cream / ointment).

                        Just a case of a medication being used off-label - and being COMPOUNDED for IV administration.

                        Unless you think the vets should have administered Sudafed or many tubes of Prep-H orally to my horse??

                        The only other reason I could see for a veterinarian not writing a script for pentosan is if the vet felt the owner was not competent to administer a medication via injection.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I am more than happy to keep my mare in heavy training on Pentosan IM as she is doing great on it. My vet has no problems writing a script for it.

                          I believe Pentaussie is the Pentosan with Acetyl Glucosamine in it. Since it is a post-surgical lavage, giving it IV or IM (not sure which way the Pentaussie is recommended) is off label use anyway. I have no experience with it, but due to the price difference, I am going to stay with Pentosan.
                          Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If I could only use drugs on-label for the conditions for which they're "officially" indicated, I would have about five things at my disposal for the 1000 different conditions I treat. My days would be short and I'd be out cleaning the barn by 10am, done for the day.

                            Actually, well, I'd be in jail if using drugs "off label" was truly "illegal".
                            Click here before you buy.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tarynls View Post
                              Well, pentosan IS FDA approved. See above. It is FDA approved for bladder conditions in humans.

                              There are many, many medications that are NOT FDA approved for their intended purpose OR in a different species. It's called using a medication off-label. And when you use a medication off-label, specifically in a different species (see below) - yes, it generally needs to be compounded.

                              FWIW, my personal vet works mostly at the track...where medications are regulated on a MUCH stricter level than those dispensed to your average Joe horse owner. And yes, my vet was the one that SUGGESTED pentosan for my horse. I highly doubt he would risk losing his track license (as that's where most of his income comes from) and he certainly would not risk losing his veterinary license.

                              Considering he stocks the compounded pentosan on his truck - and on the track, his truck is subject to random search by state officials at any time (and yes, it has been searched), one would think compounded pentosan is just fine. My state certainly doesn't have a problem with it.

                              In fact, my horse was recently hospitalzed for a nephrosplenic entrapment. He was administered phenylephrine to shrink his spleen. (It's also used topically in the equine eye for certain conditions.)

                              Per PubMed: "Phenylephrine is used to relieve nasal discomfort caused by colds, allergies, and hay fever. It is also used to relieve sinus congestion and pressure. Phenylephrine will relieve symptoms but will not treat the cause of the symptoms or speed recovery. Phenylephrine is in a class of medications called nasal decongestants. It works by reducing swelling of the blood vessels in the nasal passages."

                              You may know phenylephrine as the over-the-counter human medications "Sudafed PE", "Dimetapp Cold Drops" and others. It's also an ingredient in Preperation-H (hemmordial cream / ointment).

                              Just a case of a medication being used off-label - and being COMPOUNDED for IV administration.

                              Unless you think the vets should have administered Sudafed or many tubes of Prep-H orally to my horse??

                              The only other reason I could see for a veterinarian not writing a script for pentosan is if the vet felt the owner was not competent to administer a medication via injection.
                              Oh my. It is not FDA approved for horses. Since that is what we are talking about I didn't think I would need to spell it out. The thing that is extremely alarming about your vet is that he carries it on his truck. That is an absolute no-no. A vet can not stock a compounded drug to be sold from stock. If there is a suitable need for a compounded drug, it must be on a case by case basis. You can't just keep a supply of compounded drugs and sell them. But to each their own!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by deltawave View Post

                                Actually, well, I'd be in jail if using drugs "off label" was truly "illegal".
                                Using it off label and being illegal are two very different things!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                                  Oh my. It is not FDA approved for horses. Since that is what we are talking about I didn't think I would need to spell it out. The thing that is extremely alarming about your vet is that he carries it on his truck. That is an absolute no-no. A vet can not stock a compounded drug to be sold from stock. If there is a suitable need for a compounded drug, it must be on a case by case basis. You can't just keep a supply of compounded drugs and sell them. But to each their own!
                                  You are correct. Pentosan is not FDA approved for horses. That is why it is used OFF LABEL in horses. Which is NOT ILLEGAL.

                                  Considering I worked in the pharmacy of a large (over 70 vets) referral veterinary practice, I am well aware of pharmaceutical laws regarding use of off-label medications. In fact, we DID stock MANY compounded drugs that were NOT FDA approved for dogs/cats/exotic animals, etc.....Just like DES is compounded for dogs, Ursodiol is compounded for dogs. Neither one is FDA approved for use in DOGS - the drugs are used OFF LABEL. Your "opinion" means nothing to me. Heck, we even imported a cardiac drug for canines from the UK before it became available here in the US.

                                  Yes, the compounded drugs were dispensed on an individual, case-by-case basis. They were compounded in the clinic's name, for dispensing by the clinic.

                                  And do not be alarmed at all that my TRACK vet stocks a compounded med on his truck. He's following the laws in our state - which means the drug is compounded and dispensed not to a specific animal - rather, the label on the bottle states it is dispensed to his clinic, for him to use as he sees fit.

                                  Please find the law(s) that you feel my vet is supposedly breaking and inform me. Are you a pharmacist? Have you worked in a compounding pharmacy? I have, and believe me, the compounding pharmacies take their jobs very seriously. They would not be dispensing compounded meds in an illegal manner - if they did, their licenses would be pulled.

                                  I'm extremely curious that not only the state racing commission, but also the state police has randomly searched his truck on the backside and did not find anything amiss.

                                  It does seem that you are confusing illegal use of a compounded medication with off-label use of drugs (especially those not FDA approved for use in a different species). Please correct me if I am mistaken.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                                    Using it off label and being illegal are two very different things!
                                    Can you please clarify for me? Specifically, how the use of Pentosan on the order of a vet is illegal?
                                    Click here before you buy.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by tarynls View Post
                                      You are correct. Pentosan is not FDA approved for horses. That is why it is used OFF LABEL in horses. Which is NOT ILLEGAL.

                                      Considering I worked in the pharmacy of a large (over 70 vets) referral veterinary practice, I am well aware of pharmaceutical laws regarding use of off-label medications. In fact, we DID stock MANY compounded drugs that were NOT FDA approved for dogs/cats/exotic animals, etc.....Just like DES is compounded for dogs, Ursodiol is compounded for dogs. Neither one is FDA approved for use in DOGS - the drugs are used OFF LABEL. Your "opinion" means nothing to me. Heck, we even imported a cardiac drug for canines from the UK before it became available here in the US.

                                      Yes, the compounded drugs were dispensed on an individual, case-by-case basis. They were compounded in the clinic's name, for dispensing by the clinic.

                                      And do not be alarmed at all that my TRACK vet stocks a compounded med on his truck. He's following the laws in our state - which means the drug is compounded and dispensed not to a specific animal - rather, the label on the bottle states it is dispensed to his clinic, for him to use as he sees fit.

                                      Please find the law(s) that you feel my vet is supposedly breaking and inform me. Are you a pharmacist? Have you worked in a compounding pharmacy? I have, and believe me, the compounding pharmacies take their jobs very seriously. They would not be dispensing compounded meds in an illegal manner - if they did, their licenses would be pulled.

                                      I'm extremely curious that not only the state racing commission, but also the state police has randomly searched his truck on the backside and did not find anything amiss.

                                      It does seem that you are confusing illegal use of a compounded medication with off-label use of drugs (especially those not FDA approved for use in a different species). Please correct me if I am mistaken.
                                      Well, is it that FDA that is at the track searching the truck? If not, then most people don't know those laws and what drugs are what. No, I am not confused about off label and illegal. They are two very different things as stated above. I'm not sure where there is a summary of those laws, I'm sure they are, or some are out on the internet somewhere, maybe.... Most of these issues are ones that are published in vet journals of vets getting disciplined for such things.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        So again, if YOU YOURSELF are very sure about the law, as you seem to have indicated, can you PLEASE very precisely and specifically point out the difference between off label and illegal?
                                        Click here before you buy.

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