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something to kill adult Onchocerca? 19 CASE STUDIES POSTED-PAGE 58

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  • Originally posted by Hannahsmom View Post
    Did this ever get resolved? I couldn't find that anyone answered you on this. EqTrainer?

    I took the plunge myself on my "itchy" horse who has had other issues this summer. I did the double ivermectin, two weeks later double Equimax (crossing my fingers). After the Equimax we got scabs along bottom of neck and midlline of stomach. Then another double of Ivermectin. But the elbows aren't clearing up at all and are still a scabby/ calloused/ dandruffy patch. Simkie or anyone else want to chime in before I call the vet out? This is NOT from laying down, of that I'm sure.
    Nope... It's not resolved yet. I just bought 2 tubes of ivermectin to DD him with. I was going to wait until we got him home so I could watch for any reactions, but lately he's had a REALLY goopy eye and I want these little buggers out! So one day this week when I can hang out at the barn for while I'm going to DD him and watch for a reaction.

    I am afraid at what my BO will say, she's not the most supportive... unless it's "tried and true" in her mind. And she might tell me I have to get the vet out to look at the bumps if he does have eruptions... and I just don't have money to fork over right now. That is one thing that makes me hesitant to do this... but I don't know how long it will be before he's home... hopefully 2 months? can this wait that long?
    BDC

    Comment


    • Originally posted by gabz View Post
      I keep wondering if smearing the ivermectin directly on a scurfy spot does anything? Do you think it would burn? If it's safe enough for internal, why not external?

      But I agree with JB. Do a DD dose of Ivermectin again and you might be surprized. The stuff I was reading yesterday (I didn't all the links I came across) said that after the dose of Ivermectin/Equimax - there could be die-off for 2 - 8 weeks.
      Actually, i have smeared ivermectin paste on sweet itch belly spots in the past with good results.
      The day I DD the Ivermectin for the 1st 3 (had it on hand and in a hurry, ya know), i smeared some extra on a belly of a different horse. Her spot got better until the Equimax came in the mail and she got her double dose of that. then it broke out again bigger and angrier.

      Comment


      • TO ALL THE NEW FOLKS WHO'VE TRIED THE PROTOCOL... a reminder:

        FOR EVERYONE WHO'S DONE THE DOUBLE DOSE EQUIMAX/IVERMECTIN TEST...whether or not you've posted before, I need final updates in the below format BUT Don't Post them only here!!! PLEASE.....E-mail your responses to me at chocomare@bellsouth.net

        AGE OF HORSE
        BREED OF HORSE
        SEX OF HORSE

        --List all Pre-administration symptoms that lead to suspicion of NTW infestation, with length of time if you can. Try your best to keep it the report clean and "clinical."

        DATE OF 1st DD Administration -- present post symptoms, clearing, new symptoms, etc.

        DATE OF 2nd DD Administration -- present post symptoms, clearing, new symptoms, etc.

        If you've done post 2nd DD deworming (like weekly Ivermectin or 3rd DD), list dates, info.

        Offer final conclusion and how you plan to change your deworming program going forward.
        <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

        Comment


        • Has anyone had coughing post dd? I dd emax on a filly that is a bit contracted. She has an itchy belly mid line and a very mild cough. Just wondered if anyone else has seen this?
          www.spruceglenfarm.com
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          Comment


          • I went ahead and did a third round of 1.5 Equimax on my horse since he still has one sore on his belly. One thing I noticed - lots of healing going on around the eyes!! All the itchy places are healing up there. Also alot of dandruff coming off him lately. And he seems so happy!!!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by railmom View Post
              Has anyone had coughing post dd? I dd emax on a filly that is a bit contracted. She has an itchy belly mid line and a very mild cough. Just wondered if anyone else has seen this?
              Well now that's interesting. I hadn't thought of it before. I just did a 1.5 dose on a filly (mini) who has had a cough for years. She didn't have any itch problems but was due for the tapeworm treatment and I increased the dose a bit this time. Haven't heard her cough lately.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mhtokay View Post
                Actually, i have smeared ivermectin paste on sweet itch belly spots in the past with good results.
                The day I DD the Ivermectin for the 1st 3 (had it on hand and in a hurry, ya know), i smeared some extra on a belly of a different horse. Her spot got better until the Equimax came in the mail and she got her double dose of that. then it broke out again bigger and angrier.
                Thanks for that info...

                So here's MY take on the worsening before it gets better. The nasty things have found a place to exit - as we know, belly skin is "thinner" than many other places, so if that's the easiest place to exit and also where the midges bite the most and leave the nasties, then when we DD, that's where the nasties are going to exit and leave the worst tissue damage.

                I'm thinking that saving any small dabs of dewormer to apply a week or two later to the scurfy places might be helpful? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

                Hey JB.. YOU try it. LOL...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by gabz View Post
                  I'm thinking that saving any small dabs of dewormer to apply a week or two later to the scurfy places might be helpful? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

                  Hey JB.. YOU try it. LOL...
                  LOL, I never have any leftover I could save Although, a generic ivermectin at about $3 could be bought for just that purpose.
                  ______________________________
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                  Comment


                  • Anybody else's horse slightly off their feed after the 2nd DD?

                    Comment


                    • Yeah - that's true. Pretty inexpensive skin treatment. I would NOT use it around the eyes though.

                      If I had any crusty places left I would be tempted to try Ivermectin on one spot and Icthamol on anther.

                      Comment


                      • Well another update on my guys.
                        After my first DD scare, I stayed away from DD, but felt it was best (eventhough not vet recommended) to do a single dose Ivermectin on both horses 7 days later and another single dose again 7 days later.

                        Result. Nothing abnormal in my grey horse. The other one, who originally coliced after DD, now has one lump, the size of an egg on his flank, just below his last ribs. Also some very mild corrugated skin in neck, but hard to tell due to winter coat. He is not showing any signs of itchiness.

                        So I'm now left wondering if I should continue single doses twice more or stop here. It's just so weird that this eggshaped lump appeared only a day after his 2nd single dose Ivermectin.
                        I'm having visions of this eggshaped lump being a curled up adult NTW.
                        So far on this thread I read only one person actually had the worm visibly come out of the body. So what happens if this lumps disappears on its own. Where did the contents go???

                        Also re-reading this extract, necropsies of horses after multiple doses, showed the adult NTW's where still alive. So go long do we have to keep going with the Ivermectin, months on end?
                        http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/ind...&therow=316524
                        Ivermectin paste formulation (200 micrograms/kg) was administered orally to 27 horses (13 Thoroughbreds and 14 of mixed breeding) to evaluate activity against adult Onchocerca spp in the ligamentum nuchae. Ages, known or estimated, of the horses ranged from 1 to 22 years. Single or multiple doses (1 to 5) of the drug were given to each horse. When multiple doses were administered, the intervals between treatments ranged from 7 to 92 days. At 27 to 171 days after initial treatment (single dose or first of multiple doses), the horses were killed. Some of the horses treated more than once were killed as soon as 7 days after the last treatment. At necropsy, Onchocerca spp were found in the ligamentum nuchae of 24 (89%) of the 27 horses. All of the specimens were pieces of worms, apparently adult, which appeared to be alive. The only noninfected horses were 2 to 3 years old. In 18 (75%) of the 24 infected horses, microfilariae, most being obviously viable, were found in the worm specimens or ligamentum nuchae.

                        I was also thinking the other night about how much more common sweet itch is in the Netherlands / England then in the US (as far as I've been able to pick up on). And I was also wondering if that is because those countries don't have permethrin based flysprays. Deet is allowed in the UK, not in the Netherlands, could this be why sweet itch spreads so quickly there, no effective means of midge control?
                        Then again I get so confused and doubtfull, as I know A LOT of research has gone into sweet itch in both these countries, so surely sufficient skin biopsies must have been taken there and would have revealed microfilariae??


                        My regular vet will be here this thursday and I'm very anxious to bring this up, but I fear I'll sound like a lunatic freaking out over a horse that suddenly has one lump. How credible will I sound? I'm pondering on ways to phrase my concern correctly to my vet, so at least I stand a chance of getting my concerns across.
                        I have no doubt that this lump appeared in direct relation to my 3rd ivermectin dose, but how to convince the vet?
                        I'd love to find out from people with sweet itch horses that had biopsies done what the findings where.

                        Also should we now be thinking along the lines that collagen granuloma could be linked to NTW, rather then just being written off as allergy to fly bites? As this article describes it. http://www.equisearch.com/horses_car...s/eqbumps2192/
                        Two-odd years ago my horse has a collagen granulama along his spine in the saddle area that took months to be re-absorped. And I always had a hard time accepting a fly had bitten him there, considering he's flysheeted day & night and when ridden the saddle sat in that place. Theoretically it is possible a fly got under the sheet, but still it always baffled me....

                        Argggg too many questions, too few answers.
                        Last edited by Lieslot; Oct. 6, 2008, 06:23 PM. Reason: grammar, anyone feel free to correct me, need to learn from my mistakes :)

                        Comment


                        • Can anyone tell me the difference between serum and collagen? aren't they quite similar?

                          I mean... I kept finding small serum pimples (my terminology)... the tiny bumps with yellow sticky stuff in them, after DD but also during high midge season.

                          Comment


                          • I'm thinking we have two different issues with similar symptoms. Sweet itch is a reality, so are NTWs. One does not cancel the validity of the other. However, it makes misdiagnosis a very real possibility which should not be overlooked if the treatment protocol for one malady isn't working.

                            Comment


                            • What is interesting is NTW are passed through bites of the no-see-um biting midge (the cause of sweet itch allergy)-so maybe they are more related than at first glance?

                              Comment


                              • I called the University large animal hospital in my state to get there take on sweet itch. The Vet said that it is an allergy and has nothing to do with parasites. Ivermectin will not help and can be dangerous if given in high doses. The best way to get rid of it is antibiotics if they have an infection from itching and then Hydroxizine to ease the allergic reaction.

                                Comment


                                • Hmmm, tell that to the (so far) 62 people who have reported easing and/or total cessation of all sweet itch symptoms after following the double dosing protocol.

                                  ***************

                                  Keep those reports coming folks!
                                  <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by ChocoMare
                                    Hmmm, tell that to the (so far) 62 people who have reported easing and/or total cessation of all sweet itch symptoms after following the double dosing protocol.
                                    I am not denying any of this thread, let me start by that. And there has got to be something to it. I'm seeing weird things with my horse too, even though I am approaching it the weekly repeated single dose way at present rather then DD. Seriously I was stunned to see a lump on my guy the day after worming, in my mind definitely related, but how to convince a professional?

                                    We haven't got any hard proof. If I'm correct so far no one has done biopsies. And I was wondering if the person with the worm sticking out, took pictures and had her/his vet involved in removing the worm or at least showed it to a vet and what the reaction was. This could all add to our credibility.

                                    In the mean time I spoke to my vetfriend in England, and as I feared, her reaction was more like, uh uh, where did you get that idea from. She was also worried about possible resistance with repeated ivermectin doses.
                                    I will bring it up with my regular vet, but I doubt I'll get far and expect to be adviced to stop the weekly ivermectin doses. I have a hard time going against professional advice, even though I'm getting more and more convinced they are missing something.
                                    I'm really looking forward to the info going up on LMH-website, so I can refer vets to it, rather then asking them to read this thread, which none of them will have the time to browse through this all.

                                    Are there any publications on ill effects or proven resistance with regards to ivermectin dosing? I haven't done any online searches for that yet, may do when I find some more time.

                                    And any of our cases have their vets full backing with regards to the continuous/repeated ivermectin treatment? If so, how long did they recommend to continue the regimen?

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Lieslot View Post
                                      Are there any publications on ill effects or proven resistance with regards to ivermectin dosing? I haven't done any online searches for that yet, may do when I find some more time.
                                      It's easy to find the long-standing research that ivermectin at a 10x dose is safe.

                                      Until recently, the only known resistance to ivermectin was ascarids (not full, but growing). More recently, there has been some issue with the strongyl eggs reappearing after 4 weeks instead of the normal 8. Not exactly the same type of resistance, as in those cases the kill rate was still 100%. But, it is something to be aware of. IIRC, that study was on a couple of farms and found that issue in some horses.

                                      Both those studies are easy to find by searching The Horse, among others And, if search is working, I started a thread several months ago on the latter issue, and included the link to The Horse article.
                                      ______________________________
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                      Comment


                                      • I agree that the scientific basis is iffy, but having gone through my own health issues I also know that sometimes that which is taught in medical (or veterinary) school is based on incomplete information.

                                        These situations always remind me of human ulcer treatment. Ulcers were about stress and spicy foods for decades. One day some guy got the idea that there were bacteria involved... it took, I believe, over 10 years for the "theory" to take hold and spread. At first, the medical community thought those who treated ulcers with abx were nuts (even after several research studies supported it).

                                        Comment


                                        • Update 5

                                          So I let the old guy out (26 yr old TB, Gam) out of his pasture last night and he went right over to the belly tree and started scratching. I have noticed that he hasnt been gaining a ton of weight despite a new feeding of a lot of calories. He did gain some after his first and second DD EM. Remember this was the nervous horse that would get spooked (at nothing) and refuse to eat. After treating him with the DDs he is 100% calmer and hasnt missed a meal since.

                                          So I go and check out his belly and there are 2 giant crusty spot on his midline. Dont remember them being there last week.

                                          I am thinking of hitting him again with a DD of EM. Or should I just but some topical Ivermectrin on the spots?

                                          Here is his recap:
                                          Aug 22 - DD em
                                          Sept 1 - DD em
                                          Sept 15 - DD iverm
                                          Sept 22 - single iverm

                                          Has anyone else had this go on this long? Dont get me wrong I am 100% convinced that he was loaded with NTWs. I also know that he has had them a very long time (just been treating him for itchy skin). So I am assuming that since they were so bad - it will take a bit for them to go bye-bye?

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