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OK for horse to have NSAID, herb and homeopathics?

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  • OK for horse to have NSAID, herb and homeopathics?

    My horse has been getting Previcox and ChasteTreeBerry daily.

    I bought some homeopathics that I would also like to use, from Equiopathics ie:
    -Asthma and Allergy
    -Pre-Performance Stress
    -Musculo-Skeletal

    Is it OK to give a horse one NSAID, one herb and 1,2, or 3 homeopathic blends?

    The homeopathics would only be given the days I am at the barn ie 3x/week.
    The timing would be that he would get those days Previcox, CTB and Homeos all over the course of four hours. OK or bad/contraindicated? TIA.

  • #2
    Homeopathics are harmless as there's norhing really there.

    But herbs should be treated like pharmaceuticals, just ones with unknown strengths since there is no regulation of content or purity.

    Probably you could look up whether there are NSAID-like properties of CTB or any published/known interactions. If I were home I have some good links in my PC, but not here.
    Click here before you buy.

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    • #3
      CTB doesn't have NSAID-like properties-it's usually used for Cushings.

      The Equiopathics are blends of several remedies, so in giving three, you're actually giving many more. If it were me, I'd address one issue at a time with the homeopathic remedies. I don't know the dosing instructions, but single remedies are usually given daily for a time, then less often. Do what you can, but one blend at a time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Avoid Devil's Claw if you are using an NSAID.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by deltawave View Post
          Homeopathics are harmless as there's norhing really there.
          You do realize there are many enzymes with kinetic binding constants in the picomolar range???

          Depending on the Homepathic Remedy, active ingredients may easily be in the nanomolar range.

          Some of the Homeopathic Remedies are based on metals (consider the wonders of Lithium ...)

          I'm curious, do you also refute the effect of placebos?


          The homeopathics would only be given the days I am at the barn ie 3x/week.
          The timing would be that he would get those days Previcox, CTB and Homeos all over the course of four hours. OK or bad/contraindicated? TIA.
          If you want to use Homeopathy, do enough research to use the remedies as indicated, otherwise deltawave is correct in inferring that they are really a waste of your money.

          Comment


          • #6
            alto in gray

            You do realize there are many enzymes with kinetic binding constants in the picomolar range???

            Depending on the Homepathic Remedy, active ingredients may easily be in the nanomolar range.

            In other words, since there are no active ingredients in any homeopathic dilution, there's nothing there.

            Some of the Homeopathic Remedies are based on metals (consider the wonders of Lithium ...)

            So what? Are you familiar with the impact of Avogadro's Number on homoepathic dilutions?

            I'm curious, do you also refute the effect of placebos?

            Placebos have no demonstrable effect on horses.

            If you want to use Homeopathy, do enough research to use the remedies as indicated, otherwise deltawave is correct in inferring that they are really a waste of your money.


            If you do ANY research on homeopathy, you'll soon discover that homeopathy is a waste of money. For starters, click here.
            Tom Stovall, CJF
            No me preguntes cualquier preguntas, yo te diré no mentiras.

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            • #7
              You do realize there are many enzymes with kinetic binding constants in the picomolar range
              I had to look up "picomolar", but OK.

              The premise of homeopathy has nothing to do with actual biochemistry, however.

              So that's sort of apropos of nothing.

              Placebo effect is alive and well, and although horses are not subject to it, their owners surely are. Since most of the things homeopathic remedies are used to treat are nebulous and transient anyway, the remedies get more credit than they deserve, but that's neither here nor there. Homeopathic remedies are by far the safer of the two when comparing homeopathy to herbals. If someone is going to tinker and experiment, FAR safer to mix 5 different things containing nothing than to play fast and loose with de facto pharmaceuticals, which many herbals certainly are.
              Click here before you buy.

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              • #8
                I guess it sort of depends on whether the homeopathics in question are "true" homeopathics or herbals being marketed as homeopathics. I've seen lots of things called "homeopathic" on store shelves that are just using the phrase even though they have measurable active ingredients.

                If they're "true" homeopathics then mixing them shouldn't cause a problem, since there's nothing actually in them.

                If they're herbals or have measurable amounts of ingredient, then you'll have to do more research.
                "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                My CANTER blog.

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                • #9
                  I would ask a licensed herbalist/homeopath about mixing them. Usually not a good idea-the same as with mixing prescription drugs-you can get too much of a good thing.
                  Equine Massage Therapy Classes and Rehab for Horses
                  http://www.midwestnha.wordpress.com[/INDENT]

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                  • #10
                    If they're "true" homeopathics then mixing them shouldn't cause a problem, since there's nothing actually in them.
                    Lots of 'energy' in them ... and herbs CAN and do interfere with that depending on the particular 'energy' of the herb ...
                    --Gwen <><
                    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tom Stovall View Post
                      alto in gray

                      You do realize there are many enzymes with kinetic binding constants in the picomolar range???

                      Depending on the Homepathic Remedy, active ingredients may easily be in the nanomolar range.

                      In other words, since there are no active ingredients in any homeopathic dilution, there's nothing there.

                      Some of the Homeopathic Remedies are based on metals (consider the wonders of Lithium ...)

                      So what? Are you familiar with the impact of Avogadro's Number on homoepathic dilutions?

                      I'm curious, do you also refute the effect of placebos?

                      Placebos have no demonstrable effect on horses.

                      If you want to use Homeopathy, do enough research to use the remedies as indicated, otherwise deltawave is correct in inferring that they are really a waste of your money.


                      If you do ANY research on homeopathy, you'll soon discover that homeopathy is a waste of money. For starters, click here.
                      Since nanomolar concentration is a factor of 1000 times greater than picomolar, it's certainly possible for a homeopathic remedy to completely overwhelm targeted enzyme function.
                      The best enzyme inhibitor I ever personally measured was femtomolar - which is one millionth of a nanomole, & even if I freeze dried an entire litre of a nanomolar solution, the human eye would see nothing in the flask.

                      I'm confused by your reference to Avogadro's constant.
                      If you've actually done serial dilutions, you'd realize that it is extremely difficult to remove every molecule of a compound
                      (as opposed to the claim of your anti-alternative-if-it-ain't-certified-by-the AVMA-it's-not-possible DVM referance)

                      Given the clinically practising AVMA (& other veterinary profession) certified vets that include homeopathy in their clinic procedures, I'm a little sceptical of David Ramey's black & white perceptions.

                      As for placebo, my context there was that of a concept; & lithium seems an unlikely "drug" yet has undeniable systemic effects.

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                      • #12
                        So a picomolar concentration of something . . . let's say there IS a molecule in there . . . knows where to go and how to act to inhibit a specific enzyme, and can do so in sufficient concentration to change the entire function of the organism? HOW? Show me where the homeopathic substances actually work as enzyme inhibitors, even in realistic concentrations. How does this one molecule (hell, I'll be generous, make it TWO) navigate the oral mucosa, the stomach, the bloodstream, the liver, make it to its intended destination (which is WHERE, precisely?) and find its way to the ONE receptor that it needs to find, make an impact, and thereby have the whole organism respond.

                        Sorry. Ludicrous. Laughable, even, although the sincertity with which believers defend it is kind of pitiful and sad. Homeopathy is not scientific, it's a belief system. All that marvelous energy and vibration is also present in a steaming horse turd. Doesn't mean it should be ingested.

                        Just because practitioners include it in their armamentarium doesn't change the laws of nature. There are foolish practitioners out there, and foolish clients who demand useless remedies. And maybe the practitioners are NOT so foolish after all if they can hand out remedies that are ABSOLUTELY SAFE into the hands of ignorant owners who then feel like they have something powerful they can use on their horses. Might be danged clever, come to think of it.

                        And you might want to actually read some of the pharmacobiology of lithium. It is surprising that it might actually do something, and yet it can. IN SUFFICIENT AMOUNTS. Is it panacea? Probably not. I don't do psych; there might be much better stuff out there now. But I've handle more than a few lithium-toxic people and their resulting arrhythmias. It isn't a placebo effect. Every third thread on this board goes on and on about the amazing powers of magnesium--nobody questions THAT. In high enough doses, either of these humble minerals can make astouding changes in the body's physiology. Good thing our bodies know better for the most part and can handle amateur meddling with stuff like this and brush most of it off.
                        Click here before you buy.

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                        • #13
                          Placebos have no demonstrable effect on horses.
                          Yay! So one can not say that homeopathics are merely 'placebo effect' which some have said concerning horses.

                          Homeopathy is not scientific, it's a belief system. All that marvelous energy and vibration is also present in a steaming horse turd. Doesn't mean it should be ingested.
                          I think quantum physicists and scientists would love to argue with you! *grin*
                          --Gwen <><
                          "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                          http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You find me a quantum physicist or any other rational, intellectually honest human being with an education beyond 8th grade science who credits homeopathy with anything beyond nonsensical voodoo. I won't hold my breath.
                            Last edited by deltawave; Nov. 26, 2011, 12:16 PM.
                            Click here before you buy.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by caballus View Post
                              Yay! So one can not say that homeopathics are merely 'placebo effect' which some have said concerning horses.

                              I think quantum physicists and scientists would love to argue with you! *grin*
                              Can you provide a scientific study showing that homeopathics work on horses?

                              And I think the "placebo effect" when it comes up in horse threads tends to refer more to the owners than the animals.
                              exploring the relationship between horse and human

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by CosMonster View Post
                                Can you provide a scientific study showing that homeopathics work on horses?
                                Can you provide a scientific study showing that the memory exists in the brain?

                                And I think the "placebo effect" when it comes up in horse threads tends to refer more to the owners than the animals.
                                OK, so the horses respond positively to the homeopathic given because of the placebo effect on its owner? Mmm, interesting concept ...
                                --Gwen <><
                                "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                                http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                  You find me a quantum physicist or any other rational, intellectually honest human being with an education beyond 8th grade science who credits homeopathy with anything beyond nonsensical voodoo. I won't hold my breath.
                                  Dr. Bruce Lipton seems to have a good explanation of how homeopathy works:

                                  http://www.hydrogen2oxygen.net/bruce...thy-interview/

                                  Now whether or not he falls into your approval for a rational, intellectually honest human being I can't say. But he certainly has the 'credentials' to be belieavable.
                                  --Gwen <><
                                  "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                                  http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by caballus View Post
                                    Can you provide a scientific study showing that the memory exists in the brain?

                                    OK, so the horses respond positively to the homeopathic given because of the placebo effect on its owner? Mmm, interesting concept ...
                                    It was an honest question. I would be interested to read such a study if there is one, but I have not been able to find one.

                                    And I meant that it changes the perception of the owner, not anything to do with the horse. I've seen that happen and that's usually how I've seen the phrase used in COTH threads. For a real life example, I've had clients ask me to do something vaguely different with their horse's feet. Say, add a mustang roll or whatever, something that isn't clearly defined. I say okay and then give them the same trim I always do. Then they tell me how much better ol' Dobbin is moving thanks to the addition of the mustang roll, even though I didn't change anything in the trim. Dobbin is moving exactly the same, but the owner's perception has adjusted to fit with their beliefs.
                                    exploring the relationship between horse and human

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Now whether or not he falls into your approval for a rational, intellectually honest human being I can't say. But he certainly has the 'credentials' to be belieavable.
                                      It takes NO credentials to be "believable". It merely takes a believer. I'd say his credentials as a credible scientist are pretty iffy.
                                      Click here before you buy.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by CosMonster View Post
                                        It was an honest question. I would be interested to read such a study if there is one, but I have not been able to find one.

                                        And I meant that it changes the perception of the owner, not anything to do with the horse. I've seen that happen and that's usually how I've seen the phrase used in COTH threads. For a real life example, I've had clients ask me to do something vaguely different with their horse's feet. Say, add a mustang roll or whatever, something that isn't clearly defined. I say okay and then give them the same trim I always do. Then they tell me how much better ol' Dobbin is moving thanks to the addition of the mustang roll, even though I didn't change anything in the trim. Dobbin is moving exactly the same, but the owner's perception has adjusted to fit with their beliefs.
                                        Well, I guess it depends upon for what the homeopathy is being used. Colic? Inflammation? Pain? Lyme Disease? What? So, that's a tough call to make, isn't it?
                                        --Gwen <><
                                        "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                                        http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

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