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Kissing Spine ?

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  • Kissing Spine ?

    My amazing all around awesome OTTB may have kissing spine .My vet came up to do shots . While he was going over Stanley he hit a sore spot in his back. We did his hocks in May he got a little better. My vet asked me how he was going to the right I said he was leaning in to the right and fighting me to bend and wrap around my leg . He was also running at the jumps . We did acupuncture today with B-12 . The Chiropractor is coming Wed

    What is Kissing Spine? I have never heard of it . My saddle fits well . When i get on i stay in a two- point and ease my way into the saddle. He is a great guy a huge snuggle bug. Just be careful when u feed him lol .

  • #2
    Kissing spines is when the spinous processes on the top of the vertebrae touch when the horse is standing and/or moving. This causes pain, obviously!

    It can be a career ender although some horses function with it and building up the back muscles is a big piece of that puzzle.

    It is odd to me that your vet diagnosed this based on a couple of hot points in his back. The only way to definitively diagnose it is with x-rays of the area. I think there are many other possibilities, especially if you haven't had the chiropractor out or taken any films. See what the chiro says, and think about a second opinion. If KS is what everything is pointing towards, get x-rays done to confirm and then decide on a course of action.

    As a side rant: it irritates me so much when random diagnoses are made and vets start talking about possible ways to treat the symptoms! Diagnose the problem FIRST! THEN determine a course of treatment! Treating the symptoms doesn't help the underlying issue... ok rant over
    TPR!
    Thoroughbred Placement Resources, Inc
    www.goodhorse.org

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by echodecker View Post
      Kissing spines is when the spinous processes on the top of the vertebrae touch when the horse is standing and/or moving. This causes pain, obviously!

      It can be a career ender although some horses function with it and building up the back muscles is a big piece of that puzzle.

      It is odd to me that your vet diagnosed this based on a couple of hot points in his back. The only way to definitively diagnose it is with x-rays of the area. I think there are many other possibilities, especially if you haven't had the chiropractor out or taken any films. See what the chiro says, and think about a second opinion. If KS is what everything is pointing towards, get x-rays done to confirm and then decide on a course of action.

      As a side rant: it irritates me so much when random diagnoses are made and vets start talking about possible ways to treat the symptoms! Diagnose the problem FIRST! THEN determine a course of treatment! Treating the symptoms doesn't help the underlying issue... ok rant over
      Please note that the OP said MAY have kissing spines, not that the vet had made a definitive diagnosis.

      OP, the signs you see with kissing spines are usually associated with arthritic changes that develop where the spinous processes touch or rub. They are managed much the same way you would manage arthritis in any other joint and, depending on the severity of the lesions and where they are located, that management may or may not be met with success. There are many very good competition horses running around out there with kissing spines, but prognosis really depends on the individual animal, the location of the lesions and how feasible management options are for you. Kissing spines are not something to take lightly but they are also not always a death sentence for a career.

      There are many threads on this topic if you do a CoTH search; here is a more recent one:

      http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...kissing+spines

      Keep us posted on how your boy is doing!
      Balanced Care Equine

      Comment


      • #4
        I would not loose any sleep over it. Almost all horses, IF they have it can be managed very well.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Maybe Kissing spine or spurs on the Vertebra .We did acupuncture today. Chiropractor coming on Wed. Great 2'6 horse tucks his knees and swaps his leads . He came off the track at 7 . I went real slow and easy re-training . We went team penning 2 weeks ago!

          With that being said he does have arthritis . We did his hocks in May tha. He does have a rounded spot on his back . I was told by a previous vet it was like a "Jump Bump" this was the bump race horses got right before their hip. When the Vet hit the sore points today the horse nearly fell,back legs buckled under him.

          I thought he was having issues with his back . He is running at the jumps . When we canter to the right I twists his head and almost braces against me , he is not bending and wrapping around my leg. Its not a training issue . Something hurts I took him off his arthritis meds cause I want the chiro and vet see him base . Then treat and work from there.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Oliver18 View Post
            Maybe Kissing spine or spurs on the Vertebra .We did acupuncture today. Chiropractor coming on Wed. Great 2'6 horse tucks his knees and swaps his leads . He came off the track at 7 . I went real slow and easy re-training . We went team penning 2 weeks ago!

            With that being said he does have arthritis . We did his hocks in May tha. He does have a rounded spot on his back . I was told by a previous vet it was like a "Jump Bump" this was the bump race horses got right before their hip. When the Vet hit the sore points today the horse nearly fell,back legs buckled under him.

            I thought he was having issues with his back . He is running at the jumps . When we canter to the right I twists his head and almost braces against me , he is not bending and wrapping around my leg. Its not a training issue . Something hurts I took him off his arthritis meds cause I want the chiro and vet see him base . Then treat and work from there.

            If you are talking about a hunters bump, that is almost always because the horse has some sort of hind end lameness. Never buy a horse with a hunters bump unless you want a lame horse! It is very rare that a horse is sound if they have a hunters bump.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
              If you are talking about a hunters bump, that is almost always because the horse has some sort of hind end lameness. Never buy a horse with a hunters bump unless you want a lame horse! It is very rare that a horse is sound if they have a hunters bump.

              My JR Hunter had a " hunters bump" .Won the hack or came in second . Owned that horse for 15 years never took a lame step but, one time he had an abscess front right. Yes , I remember every Vet visit . He was my pride and joy.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                I would not loose any sleep over it. Almost all horses, IF they have it can be managed very well.
                Unfortunately that is not the case w/ my OTTB - she has KS and is now a pasture pet. A full lameless exam complete w/ xrays of everything confirmed it (No she has NEVER been lame in 8.5 years I've had her but she started refusing fences, being super girthy, would go all inverted, etc.). We tried time off, injections, muscle relaxants, bute, etc. and nothing worked - nothing. She is super, super sensitive and even now if you touch her back, she stomps one foot and does one swish of the tail - just in case I forgot about her back - she likes to remind people . You would never think anything was wrong w/ her if you saw her out galloping/playing around the field like she does everyday - she just can't handle the weight of a rider.

                Hope it turns out not to be the case w/ the OP's horse .
                Last edited by ryansgirl; Oct. 11, 2011, 09:07 AM.
                "When a horse greets you with a nicker & regards you with a large & liquid eye, the question of where you want to be & what you want to do has been answered." CANTER New England

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oh yes, if the back is sore it is for sure kissing spine! Couldn't be a saddle that doesn't fit, or a horse that is ridden hollow and high headed. It could have nothing to do with Lyme disease or EPM. It MUST be kissing spine with EXPENSIVE injections and other treatments! It could not possibly be related to the jaw being out because the teeth haven't been done, couldn't be because a couple vertebra are out because somebody was playing slip and slide in the pasture. Has to be the kissing spine diagnosis that regularly comes from a certain vet clinic. Of course it could not have anything to do with slight soreness in the feet from a problem there or just from a lousy farrier. Couldn't be because the horse has poor posture and just needs a bunch of back lifts to lift the back and work to strengthen it. It HAS to be kissing spine!

                  Funny how a well-known vet who does chiropractic and acupuncture (the one who wrote "The Pain-Free Back and Saddle Fit Book") says she has NEVER seen a case of kissing spine!!

                  Funny that.

                  Also, somebody please define a "hunter's bump."

                  Rant over.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                    I would not loose any sleep over it. Almost all horses, IF they have it can be managed very well.
                    UNTRUE.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                      I would not loose any sleep over it. Almost all horses, IF they have it can be managed very well.
                      Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                      If you are talking about a hunters bump, that is almost always because the horse has some sort of hind end lameness. Never buy a horse with a hunters bump unless you want a lame horse! It is very rare that a horse is sound if they have a hunters bump.
                      These might be your experiences, but they are most definitely not the norm

                      A Hunter's Bump is not because there's a lameness, it IS the cause of the lameness, at least originally. There are many, many horses with a HB - true HB from an injury to the SI area - who return to athletic lives. But even then, as mentioned, you need to define "hunter's bump". It's too often "diagnosed" by non-vets simply because the horse has a pointy SI joint. That doesn't make a HB, and that doesn't automatically make a horse lame.
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JB View Post
                        These might be your experiences, but they are most definitely not the norm

                        A Hunter's Bump is not because there's a lameness, it IS the cause of the lameness, at least originally. There are many, many horses with a HB - true HB from an injury to the SI area - who return to athletic lives. But even then, as mentioned, you need to define "hunter's bump". It's too often "diagnosed" by non-vets simply because the horse has a pointy SI joint. That doesn't make a HB, and that doesn't automatically make a horse lame.
                        Thank you!
                        Balanced Care Equine

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Never buy a horse with hunter's bump? That's too bad, you'll miss some good ones.
                          A HB is typically caused buy an injury to the sacral area some time in the horses life - typically some type of sliding injury. Baby's can do it in the field. If you look around at horses showing, seems to be prevelant in horses from the track, you'll see lots with some type of HB. Those same horses are packing around their riders and winning hack classes.
                          It's never so black and white but rather up to the individual horse and what you want them to do.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JB View Post
                            These might be your experiences, but they are most definitely not the norm

                            A Hunter's Bump is not because there's a lameness, it IS the cause of the lameness, at least originally. There are many, many horses with a HB - true HB from an injury to the SI area - who return to athletic lives. But even then, as mentioned, you need to define "hunter's bump". It's too often "diagnosed" by non-vets simply because the horse has a pointy SI joint. That doesn't make a HB, and that doesn't automatically make a horse lame.
                            Totally disagree. I have see hundreds of horses with hunters bumps over the years and only remember two that did not have a lameness. Both of those horses were from a bloodline of horses that were known for horses with bumps.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LookmaNohands View Post
                              Oh yes, if the back is sore it is for sure kissing spine! Couldn't be a saddle that doesn't fit, or a horse that is ridden hollow and high headed. It could have nothing to do with Lyme disease or EPM. It MUST be kissing spine with EXPENSIVE injections and other treatments! Has to be the kissing spine diagnosis that regularly comes from a certain vet clinic. Of course it could not have anything to do with slight soreness in the feet from a problem there or just from a lousy farrier. It HAS to be kissing spine!

                              Funny how a well-known vet who does chiropractic and acupuncture (the one who wrote "The Pain-Free Back and Saddle Fit Book") says she has NEVER seen a case of kissing spine!!
                              Rant over.
                              Very well said!!!! I know that vet that wrote that book and it's funny how a vet that specializes and has seen tens of thousands of horses is able to manage horses that are diagnosed with kissing spine by others yet everyone thinks it's a death sentence! I have seen kissing spine diagnosed a lot by other vets and have NEVER seen it cause long term issues once you find the right people to help you. Chiros, acupuncture, farrier, trainer, and sometimes a new rider because the rider has causes all the symptoms.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                                Totally disagree. I have see hundreds of horses with hunters bumps over the years and only remember two that did not have a lameness. Both of those horses were from a bloodline of horses that were known for horses with bumps.
                                Bloodlines don't cause HBs. Injuries cause HBs.

                                You must be talking about a pointy croup, which is genetic, which *can* cause lameness, particularly when the horse is being asked to do work that is not conducive to that conformation holding up to that work.
                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by LookmaNohands View Post
                                  Oh yes, if the back is sore it is for sure kissing spine! Couldn't be a saddle that doesn't fit, or a horse that is ridden hollow and high headed. It could have nothing to do with Lyme disease or EPM. It MUST be kissing spine with EXPENSIVE injections and other treatments! It could not possibly be related to the jaw being out because the teeth haven't been done, couldn't be because a couple vertebra are out because somebody was playing slip and slide in the pasture. Has to be the kissing spine diagnosis that regularly comes from a certain vet clinic. Of course it could not have anything to do with slight soreness in the feet from a problem there or just from a lousy farrier. Couldn't be because the horse has poor posture and just needs a bunch of back lifts to lift the back and work to strengthen it. It HAS to be kissing spine
                                  Funny how a well-known vet who does chiropractic and acupuncture (the one who wrote "The Pain-Free Back and Saddle Fit Book") says she has NEVER seen a case of kissing spine!!

                                  Funny that.

                                  Also, somebody please define a "hunter's bump."

                                  Rant over.


                                  I beg your pardon. The horses teeth are perfect . Feet are fine. I do not hire and employ lousy Vets or Farriars . My horses are ridden in a frame meaning they use themselves . Their heads are not up in the air hollowing out his back. It is not EPM I do not think it is Lymes.

                                  The Chiropractor is coming out Wed. To see is he can adjust Stan . My saddle was checked I have a Steinkraus it fits him fine

                                  I was simply asking what is a kissing spine I never heard of it.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by JB View Post
                                    Bloodlines don't cause HBs. Injuries cause HBs.

                                    You must be talking about a pointy croup, which is genetic, which *can* cause lameness, particularly when the horse is being asked to do work that is not conducive to that conformation holding up to that work.
                                    Yes, there is a blood line of horses with this defect. I can't remember the breeding but there isn't many of them. Not talking about a pointy croup, it is a hunters bump.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Oliver18 View Post
                                      I beg your pardon. The horses teeth are perfect . Feet are fine. I do not hire and employ lousy Vets or Farriars . My horses are ridden in a frame meaning they use themselves . Their heads are not up in the air hollowing out his back. It is not EPM I do not think it is Lymes.

                                      The Chiropractor is coming out Wed. To see is he can adjust Stan . My saddle was checked I have a Steinkraus it fits him fine

                                      I was simply asking what is a kissing spine I never heard of it.
                                      I don't think this was directed at you. It's just the point that some vets way over diagnose this when there are other vets that specialize in backs that think it is mostly a bunch of BS.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                                        Totally disagree. I have see hundreds of horses with hunters bumps over the years and only remember two that did not have a lameness. Both of those horses were from a bloodline of horses that were known for horses with bumps.
                                        I think Dr. James Rooney disagrees with you, although he has not seen hundreds of horses...

                                        (thousands, maybe, but not hundreds)
                                        Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                        Comment

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