• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

High protein PASTURE!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • High protein PASTURE!

    Haven't found anything in research so thought I'd ask here. 3 horses on this pasture, out 24/7. My 23 year old retired mutt, fat, no feet issues that he didn't already have when I got him back. 11 year old Paint, has lost weight but still a bit heavy with suspected IR and startung tender feet again. 13 month old WB with physitis issues off and on and now starting club foot, just now gotten to weight he should be at after being sickly skinny due to not getting his grubbies in previous boarding situation. Older guys have been on this pasture for a couple of years but not used for quite a few before that and baby came in May. I had the pasture analyzed in May, 70+ degrees and around noonish sample. Sugars are good, ESC is 5.4, but protein is 24.8%. Older guys are on ration balancers and Paint is muzzled when out. Baby is balanced per NSC guidelines and dropped this month from 4 lbs to 2.5 lbs and rebalanced except that his protein level is 2X what it should be, almost all from pasture (1.5 lbs TC 30% and 1 lb Legends 12% Performance Pellet)! Pasture has been mowed twice so it's not super tall, last time was last week and seeing tender feet in the IR horse this week. Could this pasture be causing the issues we're seeing in tender feet on the IR guy and the developemental issues on the WB baby?

  • #2
    What's the starch value? How much clover is in this pasture? I certainly wouldn't be using TC30 for this LOL

    Because it's probably clover that's pushing the pasture that high in sugars, yes, that absolutely can cause issues with the IR horse.

    Physitis issues aren't caused by protein issues, but by mineral imbalances. What are the copper, zinc, calcium, and phosphorous readings on this pasture? Do you feed any hay? what's what like? You may need to muzzle everyone on pasture, and/or reduce the time there, and feed hay more properly suitable for horses.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      JB, when I tested, there wasn't much clover but I am seeing it now and IR horse is "drooling" so he may be hitting it the hardest.

      In balancing the pasture, the TC 30 gives me the most vit/min bang per lb even if it is 30%. Here's the pasture analysis and I add Copper, Zinc and Magnesium to the mix to balance and will be adding a bit of Calcium since dropping to the 2.5 lbs. I have the nutritional values for the feeds I'm using and balance in a spreadsheet from the Yahoo Cushings group for 2-24 month olds... I'm using dry matter results from the pasture (so is 23.8, not 24.8) which are the 2nd set of numbers.

      Results
      Digestible Energy (DE), Mcal/lb .22 .96
      % g/lb. % g/lb.
      Crude Protein 5.5 24.8 23.8 108.1
      Estimated Lysine .19 .9 .83 3.8
      Lignin .8 3.6 3.5 15.6
      Acid Detergent Fiber (ADF) 6.8 30.7 29.5 133.9
      Neutral Detergent Fiber (NDF) 12.7 57.4 55.1 249.8
      WSC (Water Sol. Carbs.) 1.5 6.8 6.5 29.4
      ESC (Simple Sugars) 1.2 5.4 5.2 23.5
      Starch .7 3.0 2.9 13.2
      Non Fiber Carb. (NFC) 1.5 6.8 6.6 29.7
      Crude Fat 1.0 4.7 4.5 20.3
      Ash 2.3 10.5 10.1 45.6
      % g/lb. % g/lb.
      Calcium .09 .39 .38 1.70
      Phosphorus .09 .40 .39 1.76
      Magnesium .04 .20 .19 .87
      Potassium .70 3.19 3.07 13.90
      Sodium .003 .015 .014 .064
      ppm mg/lb. ppm mg/lb.
      Iron 41 19 180 82
      Zinc 7 3 32 15
      Copper 2 1 8 4
      Manganese 23 10 98 45
      Molybdenum .9 .4 3.8 1.7
      As Fed 100% Dry
      RFV 111

      I'm wondering if I should load him up on TC Sr or similar so he doesn't eat so much grass? Guestimate is 13-14 lb of grass per day for his 800 lbs. Have asked about confining but met with resistence and we have low protein/low sugar hay but even the confined area has some grass (no clover) so they tend to pick that over the hay and it's very short so probably higher in sugar as well.

      Comment


      • #4
        Did you freeze the samples immediately, and ship overnight frozen? If they thawed at any time, you cannot believe these sugar numbers. Respiration and fermentation can decrease them rapidly.
        See data here:
        http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle....D=9587&src=fav
        Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Katy, yes, they were taken and thrown in the freezer within 1/2 hour and not exposed to sun until they were frozen. Followed the directions per Equi-Analytical...

          JB, meant to add that the physitis is more than likely trauma induced vs nutritional but is it because the high protein is making him grow too fast?

          Comment


          • #6
            Extra protein doesn't cause fast growth or physitis. Extra calories - which may be due to a high-protein source - can cause fast growth, but even then you're looking more likely at "contracted tendons" rather than physitis. If he's just fat, the extra weight could be causing physitis. What makes you say it was likely trauma-induced?
            ______________________________
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              He's not fat, he actually just gotten to a good weight but has put on conservatively 150 lbs in the last 2.5 months. Per his balancing, we've kept his digestible energy on the low side for where he should be, 20, and he's at 16. And we may be looking at contracted tendons as he was hi/low and now the high foot is moving toward club (xrays) and tight in the check ligament.

              I say trauma induced as he is a very large boy (will top out 17h or better and just at 800 lbs, which is correct for a beastie with a mature weight of 1200) and he does some running but it's mostly duck and jive, wheeling and bouncing around playing with the boys. First time was after he came to me just weaned and didn't want to eat. Treated for ulcers for 30 days and after a few weeks, hind ankles swelled. That one I attribute to imbalanced mineral.

              2nd time the hinds swelled was the first week I brought him to this pasture and my old man kept running him off from the gate between the fields. Cut his DE 20% and added HA and it mostly went away. This time, he's blown a bog spavin in the rh, ankles have some swelling all around where before it was just hinds....

              Comment


              • #8
                Iodine. Where's the iodine? Selenium?

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Selenium/Vit E. are separate tests for big bucks and little gain from what I've read and I don't think they test for Iodine. Those are balanced per his "grain". I don't believe either would be causing the issues I'm seeing though... Selenium is best tested with bloodwork though, from what I understand.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yep, not worth testing the soil/forage for Se when all that matters is what's in the horse's blood.

                    Robin, is OCD a potential issue? Have you ruled that out, or just not thought of it?

                    13 months is old to be having physitis issues in the pasterns, as those growth plates should be closed by now.
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      We did xrays last week of the r hock that blew the bog spavin and nothing. We haven't xrayed the ankles but no lameness ever, just seems to flare with excess activity. I figure he was fruiting around in the field and slipped/twisted/whatever the hock, but vet felt physitis and noted mild in hind ankles at the time. The ankles have come and gone and are on their way back down behind. The fronts may be from the excess growth/tendon/ligament/whatever is going on up there. That will be another post

                      From Dr Deb Bennett..

                      In order after that: Short pastern - top & bottom between
                      birth and 6 mos. 3. Long pastern - top & bottom between 6 mos. And 1 yr. 4. So we have a few months yet!

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X