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Anybody ever had their horse's psoas muscle injected?

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  • Anybody ever had their horse's psoas muscle injected?

    Was it beneficial? What were the symptoms that made you inject it? Did you have to repeat it & how soon?
    Thanks.

  • #2
    I wasn't aware you could inject the psoas muscle. As far as I know (if I'm thinking of the right muscle), it's so deep down that it's generally not able to be reached by massage therapists or chiropractors. Why would you inject the muscle? Just curious.

    Comment


    • #3
      You mean like a trigger point injection? How would a vet manage to even get near that muscle?
      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
      -Rudyard Kipling

      Comment


      • #4
        That's what I'm wondering, JSwan. Also why one would inject the muscle unless it's with something like cortisone maybe to loosen the muscle up? I know a tight/messed up psoas can cause all sorts of havoc and it has to generally work itself out/other things have to be adjusted because it's not able to be reached.

        Interesting...

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          It's done via ultrasound.

          Just a brief history, some may have followed my post about my horse diagnosed with SI pain, yet SI injections did not offer relief.
          This horse also needs strong painkillers to hold up a hindleg for the farrier. Horse continues to improve very nicely on the lunge, but some set back under saddle. (back X-rays ruled out anything bony, so did bonescan in back region.)
          When ask to hold up a hindlimb for x mins something pulls, spasms.
          The psoas muscle is direcly connected to the sacroiliac joints, SI pain & psoas pain apparently often go hand in hand, add to that the struggle to hold up a leg for farriery.
          Vet suggested this as a last treatment to hopefully help that last bit under saddle.

          Not from my vet, but just from reading, that muscle could be fibrotic, which could explain some of the issues I'm seeing in this horse, but this cannot be confirmed as you can't get to it diagnostically.

          I couldn't find much info on psoas injection, hence wondering if anyone had it done.

          Comment


          • #6
            Sacroiliac injuries are never fun to deal with, I'm sorry you and your horse are going through it. The psoas muscle definitely will make holding a hoof up for the farrier problematic. Perhaps you could contact someone at the University of Guelph or Cornell to find out more information? Cornell might be easier for you to get to if you decided taking your horse there was an option, as U of G is in Ontario, Canada.

            Sorry I'm not of more use, the psoas muscle is a bugger to deal with and as you said, not a lot of information out there on it. Best of luck and let us know if you figure anything out!

            Comment


            • #7
              Sorry, I don't know.
              But I am intrigued, because in humans it is indeed a major culprit in spine problems. As are the hamstrings and ql muscles. To the point that imbalances cause herniated discs, arthritis, all sorts of problems, including SI problems.

              In humans, there are exercises for the Iliopsoas, to treat strains and relieve back pain. Stretches, too. There are trigger points for the iliopsoas in humans, i have no idea about horses. I don't know how those might translate to equines, but you could read up on that and talk to your vet to see if you could design something that might work for your horse.

              If you do find the answer you are looking for, please post back, I would be interested in what you find out. Hope the horse is better soon.
              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
              -Rudyard Kipling

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                I'm thinking of just getting it done in one of the coming weeks. I'll certainly report back on it.
                I just want to wait to see what effect the special shoeing concoction we did yesterday does to him. We shod him with a heeled shoe with frog support, which appears to give him a more relaxed stance in the pelvis, less camped under and in turnout today I noticed quite a long hindlimb stride. It was only done yesterday, hopefully next week I'll have a better idea on how that went and will then add the injection.
                I'm doing one thing at the time, so eventually I'll know what worked & what didn't, so in the future I'll know what's worthwhile repeating.

                I did indeed come across it being injected in humans with good results in some cases, so fingers crossed it carries over to horses too .

                Comment


                • #9
                  One of my students has a mare with chronically tight ileopsoas muscles; she has a habitual stance of "camped under" behind, which (according to our vet, who has extensive knowledge of anatomy and physiology and how habitual postures affect performance, she treats "the whole horse"), has contributed to her tendency to scramble in the trailer, and also to an injury that she got while turned out in the mud--apparently she slipped (left hind went under her), and she tore her gluteal muscles. This was about 7 months ago, and since then we have been stretching her hind legs as often as possible (both bringing them underneath her body, across and to the inside, gradually--and also stretching them out behind her, crossing over the opposite hock. She was unable to do this at first, but has improved tremendously with gradual increases in range of motion over time. We also have worked on lengthening the muscle with massage and bodywork exercises, plus using pressure with two fingers in front of the L/S joint (about a handspan in front of her hipbones) to get her to "bend her knees" (stifles) and lengthen and stretch the psoas muscles. As a result of all of this, both her stance and posture have changed (even though she is a little sickle-hocked and cow hocked, she is now "standing over more ground" and is more foursquare--with a leg at each corner.) This has also improved her movement under saddle. Obviously in the case of your horse, the new shoeing protocol has helped, but you might also consider doing the above things for him as well (discuss with your vet, obviously.)
                  "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

                  "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have seen it done in Europe...

                    I would say it can be done and supposedly helps IF they actually have evidence that the muscle is fibrosed (via ultrasound). With that said you'd actually have to find someone with the skills and advanced ultrasound anatomy and experience to a) know if its called for and b) can perform the procedure.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Thanks Blu, I have no worries about this vet not being competent to do so. She wouldn't have suggested it otherwise and she's pretty good with u/s. I'm not sure it is called for, but I didn't think there would be any harm in doing so either.
                      Fingers crossed, it may not be all that necessary anymore however, but not sure just yet. Still early days but the heeled shoes have triggered something in the hindend, he's now holding up a hindleg for hoofpicking much longer, which is a biggie.
                      I'm still having a warm-up issue (which actually looks to be coming from the front limbs now -sigh-), but once warmed-up, he's looking pretty normal & forward without any hitching.
                      I will continue to update on him and hopefully be able to share a positive video soon.

                      Dr Doolittle, thanks about the stretches. I'm actually in week 2 of hindend (and some front/neck) stretches, some of which are precisely what you described. Mozart, emailed me some very helpful stretches, which I've been doing religiously every day and with some online searching and a few books I recently bought, I managed to put together a daily stretching routine. I'm totally convinced they are helping, and they should be helping even more, now that I can get him to hold up those hindlimbs longer to do the stretches .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lieslot View Post
                        Thanks Blu, I have no worries about this vet not being competent to do so. She wouldn't have suggested it otherwise and she's pretty good with u/s. I'm not sure it is called for, but I didn't think there would be any harm in doing so either.
                        Fingers crossed, it may not be all that necessary anymore however, but not sure just yet. Still early days but the heeled shoes have triggered something in the hindend, he's now holding up a hindleg for hoofpicking much longer, which is a biggie.
                        I'm still having a warm-up issue (which actually looks to be coming from the front limbs now -sigh-), but once warmed-up, he's looking pretty normal & forward without any hitching.
                        I will continue to update on him and hopefully be able to share a positive video soon.

                        Dr Doolittle, thanks about the stretches. I'm actually in week 2 of hindend (and some front/neck) stretches, some of which are precisely what you described. Mozart, emailed me some very helpful stretches, which I've been doing religiously every day and with some online searching and a few books I recently bought, I managed to put together a daily stretching routine. I'm totally convinced they are helping, and they should be helping even more, now that I can get him to hold up those hindlimbs longer to do the stretches .
                        Excellent!
                        "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

                        "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Lieslot, can you take pics of the hind shoeing package and email them to me, as well as the stretches? PMing you my email now.. So curious and glad to hear something is helping your boy!
                          "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                          ---
                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Sure, give me a day or so to type up the stretches and I'll email them to you .

                            I'll happily share his shoeing concoction on here.
                            We had quite some talk about wedging the hindfeet with wedgepads, but my farrier explained that in his experience, once you start wedging hindfeet often you set up the horse for wedges lifelong. From his experience wedging the hinds doesn't necessarily get the horse to grow more heel, it may even crush them more. So we threw that idea out of the window.
                            He had had succes with another horse with stifle problems (not necessarily SI issues) and the heeled shoes had helped that horse pretty well.
                            Because my guy has a tendency to prolapse the frogs on the hinds, the worry was that the heeled shoe would make this worse, hence we added a loosely fitted pad, that was a little scooped out in the frog area (which you can see at the back pic 6) to help keep that frog up. We couldn't use the same frogsupport pads as he has on the fronts, as that would have pressured his hindfrogs too much at this point.

                            In his experience, each time he used a heeled shoe on low heeled horses they actually started growing heel. So we hope that one day he'll have sufficient heel not to need this anymore. I'd love him to be out of these by next winter, but we'll see how it all goes.

                            He was instantly quite comfortable in those hinds, (pelvis seems more relaxed and not standing camped under). He also grazes in a more elongated frame so to speak.
                            Workwise it looks like he feels more secure in the hindend. He hasn't slipped the stifle once ever since.

                            http://pets.webshots.com/photo/21297...03033870rxZGkm
                            http://pets.webshots.com/photo/29863...03033870izvylU
                            http://pets.webshots.com/photo/29149...03033870apaWrR

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've had much better success with Shockwave and Aquatred therapy. Can also use Respond lasers and magnetic blankets but I only use those as supportive care. Shockwave and swimming are treatments.
                              "ronnie was the gifted one, victor was the brilliant intellect, and i [GM], well, i am the plodder."

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Anything waterrelated is a total no-no for this horse. But I can see how that would be very helpful however.
                                Haven't thought nor discussed shockwave, will aks vet about that.
                                I wonder how deep lasers would go, I didn't think they could reach that deep?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  the science doesn't really back up the benefit of lasers. I'd stick with shockwave. And EVERYONE says that the water thing is not going to happen with their horses. Only 1 out of 100 don't go. My horse in particular still won't look at a creek but he'll put himself in the Aquatred. Go figure!
                                  "ronnie was the gifted one, victor was the brilliant intellect, and i [GM], well, i am the plodder."

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    I worry it may not be worth the risk, eventhough there's an aquatred only 15mins away from here.

                                    I was watching Catherine Haddad's video (http://www.youtube.com/user/DanishHo...42/MeXNGAFA7mo) on aquatred and looking at how those hindquarters get to move, yes it's definitely strengthening at it's highest level.
                                    However even she was not going to risk it in the past on Cadillac, like she said. Somehow they did manage to teach him.

                                    But if you have a horse that dogsits the minute he's in fear, that would be enough to undo any healing that has happened in the SI region over the last few months. I don't want him down on his hocks again, which I know is exactly what he'll do and I'd be lucky if he doesn't rear over the sides, with his size a piece of cake. Coming all this way for him to possible undo it in one session of trashing himself, isn't worth it, especially since this guy has proven time & time again he has zero self-preservation.
                                    This horse won't even go in a indoor washstall, he went down on his hocks 3 years ago and ever since it's a no-no, why repeat what I know will happen.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Aquapacer like you're seeing in video and Aquatred are VERY VERY different things. I wouldn't put my horse in an aquapacer. Never. And benefits are very different.
                                      "ronnie was the gifted one, victor was the brilliant intellect, and i [GM], well, i am the plodder."

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        looks like this. Water is warm. Water displaces about 50% of the bodyweight because it comes half way up belly. Horses eyes are at foot level when in pool so they don't ever think of jumping out. MUCH MUCH safer!
                                        "ronnie was the gifted one, victor was the brilliant intellect, and i [GM], well, i am the plodder."

                                        Comment

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