• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Help with a medical mystery - trying to help the vets get ideas

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Help with a medical mystery - trying to help the vets get ideas

    Hey I am posting this for friends, this is not my horse. Before anyone says it, the vets have been involved in every step of this, they are all just stumped right now, including 3 locally and at least 3 in a very well respected vet hospital. The owners are not trying to save money or avoid real veterinary advice or treatment. The horse is getting the best care possible. I have gotten very valuable information and contacts on this board to help them save a horse in the past and hope this will ring a bell for someone somewhere to give them a direction to go in.

    They have a 9 year old arab mare they bred. She has been in the same barn, pasture, etc her entire life and has never left the farm. This past week the horses received their spring vaccinations, done by a vet. Within less than 48 hours her sire, who was 32 and had also was born and lived his entire life on that farm and pasture, had some horrible medical issue and was put down. They go out in the same pasture on alternate schedules, so same grass etc and same water trough. He was fine Thurs night after the shots, and all day Friday. Friday night I believe things started. He had trouble breathing, coughing, all over violent muscle fasciculations, repeated stretching to pee but only a small amount of urine would come out. He eventually went down, had nystagmus and was put down. The vet was called immediately when they realized he was not well. He never had a fever, had a heart rate of 60. Initial rectal exam showed a very full bladder, but nothing else of note. A follow up rectal was unsuccessful, he was bearing down too hard for the vet to even get anywhere. It sounds like a colic/rupture except for the breathing issues, and neurologic signs. Within another 24 hours or so his daughter started showing signs, beginning with the muscle fasciculations and coughing/breathing trouble. The vet was called immediately. She had a temp of 102.8 at one point but it came right back down. With no idea what was going on, she was transported to a vet hospital. Bloodwork on the stallion came back abnormal but nothing definitive. I can get that if it helps, no signs of infection though. Hers was more normal than his. When she arrived at the hospital she was very stressed (the first time off the farm and first trailer ride), sweating and had muscle fasciculations, absolutely no coughing or breathing issues. (Both horses lungs sounded normal even through the coughing.) She was given some time to walk and calm down. The fasciculations stopped. Her bloodwork on arrival was normal other than slight dehydration. She was given IV fluids overnight, but nothing else. Her heat rate on arrival was 60 but went down to 40 within a half an hour of arrival. No rolling, no real signs of colic, no signs of infection. She stayed almost 24 hours but seemed completely normal, no more signs of anything so they said take here home, she seems over it. Her afternoon bloodwork was completely normal. When she arrived home last night she came out of the trailer the same way, stressed, sweating and with slight fasciculations. She was also coughing, and had clear discharge from her nose and mouth. She has been eating and drinking, peeing and pooping normally through all of it. Today she has copious amounts of clear fluid from her nose and mouth at certain times (not constant) and when she does the muscle fasciculations start again. There are 2 other horses in the same barn, same field and they have shown no signs. Both are elderly so definitely not a case of them being stronger or healthier than this mare. One of the others is her mother. Neither horse's bloodwork showed any signs of any organ failure either.

    Does this ring any bells about ANYTHING for anyone? The possibilites being discussed right now are toxin (either vegetation or a poison), a vaccine reaction to a rabies vaccine (which has always been done, never lapsed) or some bizarre disease. The horses are well cared for and fed, looked at several times a day, and usually very healthy. The vet care and vaccines have always been kept up to date. It is a closed herd, with one rescue brought in, but it has been several months and she was quarantined for a month when she arrived. Help us help her please!!!

    Oh I forgot when she got to the hospital both her pupils were dilated and not constricting. Both evenly. She had been given any medication that would cause that. The eyes were normal by the next morning.
    Last edited by abbydp; Mar. 23, 2011, 09:57 PM. Reason: forgot a symptom

  • #2
    Wild guess --but I've seen a very similar reaction in a horse who had ingested horse chestnut.
    Only other one I can think of that resembles some of what you described , is kikiyu grass poisoning.
    Originally posted by ExJumper
    Sometimes I'm thrown off, sometimes I'm bucked off, sometimes I simply fall off, and sometimes I go down with the ship. All of these are valid ways to part company with your horse.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Thank you! I have passed that along.

      Comment


      • #4
        What vaccinations did the horse get? I think it sounds like a reaction to that (only because one of my horses reacted last year to a vaccination - not the recalled one), and he had many of the same symptoms. Sometimes, the older horses react to things they've never reacted to before.

        Comment


        • #5
          What was the poisoning of the polo ponies in florida, when the lab screwed up some mixture? (Excess Selenium?)


          or-
          Nightshade? ( For some reason, there was a toxic plant that causes the dialated pupils/congested lungs...I thought this was the name...)

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, wierd. I can't buy the vaccine reaction bit though cuz the time frame is too long.

            Toxic plant sure is possible. And not my strong suit!

            Can you get the lab results? I know it will be a long thing for you to post but results--both normal and abn-might have something in them as a clue? (or not)

            Comment


            • #7
              Blister beetle poisoning? Are they fed alfalfa? and if so, where is it made?

              ETA - more information here:
              http://microvet.arizona.edu/AzVDL/in...terBeetle.html
              "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

              Comment


              • #8
                The signs don't exactly match, but the first thing I thought was botulism... Especially with the muscle fasciculations, respiratory distress, common pasture, colic signs and mydriasis.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Well it has gotten more confusing. Now another one of them is sick, so it has to be something contagious. The original mare I was asking about is still sick, still has tons of fluid coming out of her nose and mouth, trouble breathing, but no more shaking. I got one message from them today saying it didn't look like she was swallowing. I have not heard back yet. She was so normal at the vet hospital though. I know they know botulism, I took a foal there that was confirmed to have it, they stock the anti-toxin. The foal survived. I would say strangles except for the tremors and dialiated pupils.

                  Sorry - no alfalfa. They have decent pasture so this mare wasn't usually given hay at all. She also ate different feed than her dad.

                  The received the usual spring shots. The original thought was a rabies vaccine reaction but not if a new one is sick now.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What state do you live in?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by abbydp View Post
                      Well it has gotten more confusing. Now another one of them is sick, so it has to be something contagious. The original mare I was asking about is still sick, still has tons of fluid coming out of her nose and mouth, trouble breathing, but no more shaking. I got one message from them today saying it didn't look like she was swallowing. I have not heard back yet. She was so normal at the vet hospital though. I know they know botulism, I took a foal there that was confirmed to have it, they stock the anti-toxin. The foal survived. I would say strangles except for the tremors and dialiated pupils.

                      Sorry - no alfalfa. They have decent pasture so this mare wasn't usually given hay at all. She also ate different feed than her dad.

                      The received the usual spring shots. The original thought was a rabies vaccine reaction but not if a new one is sick now.
                      ummmm
                      You need the vet out for that mare NOW! Sounds like a reaction that will result in her death if there is not immediate intervention.

                      Some sort of shock reaction ...what to you can't say; not necessarily contagious, just something all ate or were exposed to -but until you find out, isolate, don't turn out in any grass or pasture, change out all feeds and hay, bedding, etc.
                      And get the reaction under control with the vet.

                      wishing for a good outcome..
                      Last edited by D_BaldStockings; Mar. 24, 2011, 07:56 PM. Reason: added note

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Possible poisoning
                        organophoshates
                        pesticides
                        cleaning agents

                        OK this is out there:
                        gila monster toxin


                        Call your local poison center hotline and give the symptoms, I know it is horse, not human, but they may have possibles. So many toxic plants and substances.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sounds like a toxin situation. If not from the pasture, then from the hay.

                          Some horses are more selective than others with hay, others are not -- especially if that's all they have to eat. Some may become ill before others. It could also be a toxin in the grain (it happens).

                          Whatever hay you're feeding, I'd stop using it immediately to avoid the possibility of the others also becoming ill. I would get fresh bags of grain.

                          You may never know the root cause, but I would guess the problem is from an ingested source...not vaccinations.

                          If it was botulism, you'd be seeing bigtime neuro problems by now...at least in horse # 1, and typically it first shows up with some ataxia, but marked laxation of the tongue.

                          Good luck. Keep us posted.
                          www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                          "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                          Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Johnson Grass?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Jingles for the horses!

                              I Google searched for toxic plants.

                              White Snakeroot

                              Signs of poisoning begin with trembling in the leg muscles. Other symptoms include sweating, labored and rapid breathing, constipation, depression, stiff gait, dilated pupils, and weakness. Death may be sudden.

                              sweating, stumbling, depression, jugular pulses, tachycardia, cardiac arrythmias, and difficulty swallowing. Electrocardiogram changes include increased heart rate, ST elevation, variable QRS complexes, and ventricular premature beats. Muscle tremors are inconsistently observed in horses with white snakeroot poisoning.



                              http://www.addl.purdue.edu/newslette...er/finaldx.asp

                              " In horses, white snakeroot intoxication is associated with congestive heart failure. Clinical signs include sweating, stumbling, depression, jugular pulses, tachycardia, cardiac arrythmias, and difficulty swallowing. Electrocardiogram changes include increased heart rate, ST elevation, variable QRS complexes, and ventricular premature beats. Muscle tremors are inconsistently observed in horses with white snakeroot poisoning."

                              http://ohioline.osu.edu/b762/b762_24.html

                              "WHITE SNAKEROOT (Eupatorium rugosum) – This plant is a common perennial of shady, moist woodlands and wood edges. It often goes unnoticed because flowering does not begin until July or later. Stems are tall and mostly smooth, with opposite, long-petioled leaves. Leaf blades are generally egg-shaped, with sharply toothed margins and three prominent veins. Small white flowers are borne in loose spreading clusters.
                              The toxic compound, tremetol, is found in the leaves and stems of white snakeroot and is at peak concentrations in summer through fall. Tremetol is unusual in that it is a fat-soluble molecule that becomes concentrated in the milk of lactating animals. Signs of poisoning begin with trembling in the leg muscles. Other symptoms include sweating, labored and rapid breathing, constipation, depression, stiff gait, dilated pupils, and weakness. Death may be sudden."
                              -------------

                              Spotted Water Hemlock

                              All parts poisonous especially roots. Roots can poison drinking water. All season and when dried in hay. Damp, open habitats, ditches, wet meadows, swamps, low- lands, and streams. Found throughout Minnesota.
                              All animals, especially swine

                              Burning sensation in mouth a few minutes to a few hours after eating.
                              Difficulty in swallowing, foaming at the mouth, excessive salivation,
                              dilation of the pupils. Internal symptoms—nausea, diaphragm
                              contractions, vomiting, diarrhea, violent convulsions. Affects nervous
                              system, resulting in nervousness, muscle twitching, violent teeth
                              clenching, slowing of the heart, weak pulse, visual disturbances, heart
                              failure, loss of consciousness and death. Occurs in 15 minutes to 1 hour.
                              Poison in an unsaturated alcohol, cicutoxin. A piece the size of a walnut
                              can kill a cow.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                If the vets you're working with are at all concerned that it's a toxicity, I'd have them get in touch w/ Dr. Murphy...

                                http://www.vet.upenn.edu/FacultyandD...lty_id=6349603

                                Or you could try the ASPCA Poison Control Center -- not cheap, but they're super knowledgeable (at least about small animals, which is what the clinic where I worked used them for). You might get more out of it if you have your vet call for you, which is what we generally did for clients. They also have a list/photos of plants toxic to horses:

                                http://www.aspca.org/Pet-care/poison...-horses&page=4

                                Also, check out organophosphate toxicity...

                                http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in.../bc/100608.htm

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  We are in southeast Va. I am not on the same farm, have nothing to do with their care, but I am passing along all ideas. The vets are very involved and seeing the horse multiple times per day if needed.

                                  Has anyone heard of rhino in the area lately??

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I think, right now I'd be inclined to just get them off what their eating (both hay and grain) and get new inventory.

                                    While you're waiting to find out what the answer might be (and you might never), it won't help the horses that may be eating whatever is the offender. That is the safest thing to do right now.

                                    I went through this with 3 horses just about 3 months ago. Almost lost all 3, but never found out what it was. BUT, I DO suspect there was some problem with a small batch of hay in the 300 bales that was wonderful hay and I'd been feeding all winter without problem. Zeroing in on toxins in a few bales of hay out of hundreds can be like finding a needle in a haystack.

                                    Once this happened to my 3 (out of 14), I just stopped feeding what they were eating...assuming SOMETHING was amiss. Hayman took the rest a credit, though I could never PROVE that it was a problem.

                                    After a lot of supportive therapy (and getting them off whatever they were eating -- and not being sure that was the problem), they all recovered.

                                    Surely it was an ingestion situation, but I wasn't willing to wait to find out. In a case like yours, I think that is prudent. Does not sound contagious at all to me.
                                    www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                                    "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                                    Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      By chance, were all the horses dewormed at the same time vaccs given?
                                      Only ask, because there was a similar situation at a barn down here a few years ago.
                                      Questionable batch of generic ivermectin based dewormer. Several horses affected with ivermectin toxicity. Very similar signs.
                                      Not sure if this helps, but just wanted to chime in. Hope things are getting better.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        There have been numerous reports of adverse reactions to vaccines this spring. What vaccines, specifically (brand, type, etc.), were given?
                                        --Gwen <><
                                        "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                                        http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X