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Succeed - why not just use oat flour?

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  • Succeed - why not just use oat flour?

    Vet was out Monday for routine stuff and we were talking about various ulcer medications and feeding regimes. Vet said that my horse would probably benefit from Succeed and that she's seen really great results with it. The horse is doing fine, but she just thought that for long term care, I should probably really consider giving Succeed, especially as her workload and competition schedule increases. She still gets loose wet poop when she's nervous and with endurance season coming up, I feel I really should be doing more.

    So in looking at the ingredients, it's mostly oat flour. Oat flour at the bulk food store here is 48 cents per pound. That brings the cost to about $2 per month versus Succeed, which is around $90 per month.

    Horse gets a probiotic already. She also gets plenty of L-Glutamine in the SmartGut but apparently dried cabbage is a good source. Would be a LOT cheaper. The amount in Succeed is neglible anyway so I could even cut the SmartGut dosage into 1/4 and still get more than Succeed provides.

    http://www.biostareq.com/formulas/tum-ease-120

    Last night I made a batch of cookies using all those ingredients listed except for apple powder. I could even buy the Spelt locally!

    They smell wonderful and my cost to make a 2.2 pound batch of cookies was around $8, versus the $64 plus shipping that the Bio Star site charges for 1.98 pounds of product.

    So I'm wondering if anyone else is feeding oat flour instead of Succeed? Before anybody gets into a panty twisting tizzy, I'm not implying this stuff can replace Omeprazole. I'd still use Omeprazole as needed, just wondering about adding the oat flour into the diet for hind gutt health. Thanks guys.

  • #2
    The horse is doing fine, but she just thought that for long term care, I should probably really consider giving Succeed
    Sounds like the vet has imbibed the Kool-Aid. Why add anything? All the testimonials in the world are not a substitute for evidence, nor can they spin a humble list of ingredients/nutrients into gold, although the company appears to have pulled a Rumpelstiltskin and is doing exactly that on the strength of endorsements and the fact that "poor hind gut health" is one of the maladies du jour.

    Just about every horse I've ever known gets loose wet poop when they're nervous. So do a lot of people, for that matter. That's a symptom that may not be connected to a disease.
    Click here before you buy.

    Comment


    • #3
      I feed oat flour instead of Succeed for my ulcery gelding. It works on the hind gut. After shelling out all the $ for his omeprazole (which at the vet's suggestion I used alone, without any other treatment at the time until the course was done) I couldn't see spending $90/mo on Succeed once we were finished with his omeprazole, so now he's on the oat flour with U-gard. I'll keep him on the oat flour for probably 2-3 months, and then just stick with the U-gard. I've heard people having great results with SmartGut as well.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
        Why add anything? All the testimonials in the world are not a substitute for evidence, nor can they spin a humble list of ingredients/nutrients into gold, although the company appears to have pulled a Rumpelstiltskin and is doing exactly that on the strength of endorsements and the fact that "poor hind gut health" is one of the maladies du jour.
        That's pretty much the same thing my vet told me when I asked about Succeed.
        --o0o--

        Comment


        • #5
          Not ONE, SINGLE actual research article on their website. What a scam, charging what they do for . . . not much.
          Click here before you buy.

          Comment


          • #6
            I had really impressive personality changes on one mare, within a week of Succeed.

            Is oat flour just ground up whole oats? could we not do that in a coffee grinder...

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Thanks to those who have experience with this.

              17Rider - no, as I understand it, the oat flour is not the entire oat. The entire oat contains a boat load of starch, which of course is terrible for a horse with ulcers. I'm not an expert on grain processing so I don't know any of the technical terms, but the flour and bran are made only using certain parts of the grain so the starch content is not an issue.

              Delta - no the vet has not "drank the kool-aid." She was helping me to formulate a long range plan for this horse because she will be competing a more this year than she has in the past. Given the increased work load, we both thought it prudent to maximize the diet as much as possible so the horse does not have a relapse. And as you know, Omeprazole is a banned substance and cannot be used during THE most stressful times, which is leaving home and then riding that many miles in a day. So during those times especially I need to use something that isn't banned. She already gets alfalfa and beet pulp daily and I rely on the Omeprazole when really needed since it IS proven. But when you compete, you can't use it for 24 hours before. So if she can be on something daily for the long-term that is ok for competition, I would feel better.

              Comment


              • #8
                I was under the impression that Succeed is marketed for "hind gut health". Omeprazole has no impact on the hindgut, so I'm not sure how its presence or absence is relevant here. A relapse of ulcers would have nothing to do with the hindgut.

                Missing a dose or two of omeprazole should not impact an ulcer state significantly in the grand scheme of things, biologically speaking. Ulcers do not appear instantaneously upon seeing a low pH.
                Click here before you buy.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Endoscope only sees about 10% of the digestive tract. The remaining 90% is inaccessible. Many experts agree that if a horse has been scoped and found to have ulcers in the stomach, chances are more likely that there are ulcers elsewhere which cannot be seen, including the hind gutt. If there is something cheap, easy, and safe that I can try which might minimize the chance of ulcers forming in the hind gutt, then I am willing to try it. As I said, the horse gets SmartGut daily and Omeprazole as needed. She also gets beet pulp and alfalfa. The oat flour would be one additional digestive tract benefit that I can easily add, which is not a banned substance. In other words, I am interested in the entire digestive tract, not just the stomach.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
                    And as you know, Omeprazole is a banned substance and cannot be used during THE most stressful times, which is leaving home and then riding that many miles in a day. So during those times especially I need to use something that isn't banned. She already gets alfalfa and beet pulp daily and I rely on the Omeprazole when really needed since it IS proven. But when you compete, you can't use it for 24 hours before. So if she can be on something daily for the long-term that is ok for competition, I would feel better.
                    I'm sorry, mabe It's an endurance rule but where does it say that omeprazole is a banned substance ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
                      And as you know, Omeprazole is a banned substance and cannot be used during THE most stressful times, which is leaving home and then riding that many miles in a day. So during those times especially I need to use something that isn't banned.
                      http://www.feicleansport.org/faqs.html It appears Omeprazole is not banned by the FEI.

                      Not sure if the sport you compete in uses FEI rules, though.

                      If your horse has so many severe digestive problems, perhaps competition is not a good career path for her.
                      --o0o--

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes, but omeprazole has no effect on hindgut ulcers. These are an entirely different disorder, and not impacted in any way by reduction of stomach acid. So I'm not sure what withdrawal of omeprazole prior to competing has to do with the hindgut.

                        I'm all for inexpensive and harmless, but only if those two factors are accompanied by EVIDENCE. As you will find if you look, these products have NONE. I totally get the "it can't hurt" philosophy, but I don't like to throw away even a little bit of money, much less a lot, on a completely unproven remedy or treatment. No way would I buy Succeed. Oat flour? If I could find something demonstrating its benefit, possibly. I have a hard time picturing what could POSSIBLY be in oat flour that could have this sort of
                        impact. And I continue to wait for the companies that sell it for ungodly prices to show me. But hell, why should they bother? apparently many, many people will buy it without any evidence whatsoever, only silly testimonials from paid users.

                        Endorsements from Olympians and huge markups have the opposite effect on me from what the product sellers intend, usually.
                        Click here before you buy.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have been giving my mare 1/4 cup oat flour and a probiotic daily for over a year now and have had no reoccurrence of ulcer symptoms.

                          She was initially treated w/ omeprazole. She is also on a soy free diet (oats, beet pulp, rice bran (stabilized) and flax) and receives 2 lbs. of alfalfa pellets daily and plenty of hay.

                          I also found that Succeed (not available up here anyway) was mostly oat flour and decided to try the much cheaper oat flour. The probiotic has slippery elm and marshmallow root in it.

                          (Oat flour is made from the endosperm of the oat grain.)
                          \"Have a heart that never hardens, a temper that never tires, and a touch that never hurts.\" Charles Dickens

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Omeprazole most certainly IS a banned substance by the AERC, which is the body that governs endurance riding, so FEI rules don't apply here.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                              Yes, but omeprazole has no effect on hindgut ulcers. These are an entirely different disorder, and not impacted in any way by reduction of stomach acid. So I'm not sure what withdrawal of omeprazole prior to competing has to do with the hindgut.

                              I'm all for inexpensive and harmless, but only if those two factors are accompanied by EVIDENCE. As you will find if you look, these products have NONE. I totally get the "it can't hurt" philosophy, but I don't like to throw away even a little bit of money, much less a lot, on a completely unproven remedy or treatment. No way would I buy Succeed. Oat flour? If I could find something demonstrating its benefit, possibly. I have a hard time picturing what could POSSIBLY be in oat flour that could have this sort of
                              impact. And I continue to wait for the companies that sell it for ungodly prices to show me. But hell, why should they bother? apparently many, many people will buy it without any evidence whatsoever, only silly testimonials from paid users.

                              Endorsements from Olympians and huge markups have the opposite effect on me from what the product sellers intend, usually.
                              But yet you are PERFECTLY OK with buying cheap, generic Omeprazole from India and giving it to your horse. You have NO proof that that drug is what it says it is. You were ok with a COTH poster saying she sent the granuals into a lab and it did in fact contain the enteric coating that was advertised, but yet you don't know if the drug inside the coating is what it says it is. But you're willing to take the chance. What if only that one batch was properly coated? What if their quality control sucks and the next batch isn't properly coated?

                              And yes, I know full well what portion of the digestive tract Omeprazole acts upon. Read my post more clearly. I am interested in protecting THE ENTIRE DIGESTIVE TRACT. I never said - and nor did I imply - that oat flour is going to work exactly the same as Omeprazole. That is your perception of what was actually posted.

                              I am operating on the assumption that if the horse is stomach ulcer prone, that hind gutt ulcers are a more likely possibility as well. The oat flour (Succeed) is supposed to help address the hind gutt and the Omeprazole addresses the fore gutt. Obviously sucrulfate is for hind gutt but that is also banned.

                              Hind gutt and fore gutt are part of the same tract. I would like to do what I can for all parts of that tract, at all times, including competition. Obviously Omeprazole is a banned substance but oat flour is not, so at least I can protect what I can protect and just hope for the best for the rest of it.

                              You and I wil NEVER agree on much of anything, so lets just respectfully leave it at that.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Yes, I am OK with generic drugs from Pharmaceutical manufacturers in India. Just like you were apparently OK with illegally compounded generic omeprazole mixed up in the garage of barrel racers in Oklahoma or wherever up until very recently.

                                If you believe that oat flour will protect your horse with not one iota of evidence showing how, if, or why, go for it. There are too many assumptions there for me to swallow, but that's how things are--we each get to choose what is and is not safe or effective based on what we know, what we learn, and what we believe.
                                Click here before you buy.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Sarabeth View Post
                                  If your horse has so many severe digestive problems, perhaps competition is not a good career path for her.
                                  Hu? Where in the hell did you get that from? I never said my horse has "so many severe digestive problems." In fact, she doesn't. She was diagnosed via endoscope over 2 years ago to have ulcers. They were treated. Now I do maintenance to ensure she doesn't have a problem again the future. She's actually doing great, and has NO problems. But I don't want to go back to life as it was and have her flare up again.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    You were ok with a COTH poster saying she sent the granuals into a lab and it did in fact contain the enteric coating that was advertised, but yet you don't know if the drug inside the coating is what it says it is.
                                    I must also point out that there is nothing, anywhere guaranteeing that the Succeed contains what they say it does. Nor any other supplement, nutraceutical, herbal, or other remedy that isn't a pharmaceutical.
                                    Click here before you buy.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                      Yes, I am OK with generic drugs from Pharmaceutical manufacturers in India. Just like you were apparently OK with illegally compounded generic omeprazole mixed up in the garage of barrel racers in Oklahoma or wherever up until very recently.

                                      If you believe that oat flour will protect your horse with not one iota of evidence showing how, if, or why, go for it. There are too many assumptions there for me to swallow, but that's how things are--we each get to choose what is and is not safe or effective based on what we know, what we learn, and what we believe.
                                      In the op, I asked a specific question - is anyone else feeding oat flour instead of Succeed. You let your opinion be known, fine you have that right. I'm not comfortable making the same choices for my horse that you have made for yours, and you are not comfortable with decisions I've made for my horse. So drop it and move on. I really get sick of every damned thread I try to start becoming a train wreck by the SAME people over and over and over and over.............you just never get sick of it do you?

                                      If you have no personal experience with using either Succeed, or oat flour for hind gutt health, then move on because clearly you have nothing of value to add here.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                        I must also point out that there is nothing, anywhere guaranteeing that the Succeed contains what they say it does. Nor any other supplement, nutraceutical, herbal, or other remedy that isn't a pharmaceutical.
                                        No, there isn't. So at the end of the day it looks like each person decided to feed supplements or not based on their own research and comfort level. You feed what you want, I feed what I want. And heck, even pharmaceuticals aren't safe. How many drugs have been pulled from the market because oopsie - it might have cured your pain but you'll die of a heart attack instead. My bad. So, period. End of discussion.

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