• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

EPM, EMND, ESPM and muscle wasting?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • EPM, EMND, ESPM and muscle wasting?

    I need to work up a diet for a horse that has some issues. Had vet out today and she was concerned because he has been losing weight and his top line is starting to look really bad. He is only 12. She recomended feeding Vit E and expressed her concern that a lot of horses lately have been showing Vit E deficencies and will have muscle treamors etc. And thought very strongly my horse is developing this problem by the way he looked.

    SOOO! Ugg.... This horse was diagnosed with EPM many years ago and currently he gets the following:

    Timothy Hay
    1/2 lb of O and M to mix in
    Four flex with HA joint supplement
    Karbo Combo (for EMP)
    and I just added Vit E oil
    Free choice Harvest salt

    He has a lot of allergies (corn, beet pulp, Orchard hay, bermuda hay) and Alfalfa makes him TOO HOT.

    So any help or ideas? Thanks.
    Live in the sunshine.
    Swim in the sea.
    Drink the wild air.

  • #2
    Tri-amino, and run a selenium titer asap.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
      Tri-amino, and run a selenium titer asap.
      How much tri amino? And I can call the vet to run the test. Would you think he's deficient in Selenium? What are the dangers of this?

      Thanks. So much I don't know.
      Live in the sunshine.
      Swim in the sea.
      Drink the wild air.

      Comment


      • #4
        Did the vet consider a relapse of EPM? You want to hop on that ASAP if so.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
          How much tri amino? And I can call the vet to run the test. Would you think he's deficient in Selenium? What are the dangers of this?

          Thanks. So much I don't know.
          My guess is that the tremors are from low selenium rather than vitamin E.

          My guy was diagnosed with PSSM but prior to that he was teeth grinding, and had muscle fasticulations, we pulled blood and found his selenium really low........the added selenium stopped the majority of the grinding and all of the muscle fasticulations but still had other unresolved issues.....which finally lead us to PSSM.

          Dalemma

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by Dalemma View Post
            My guess is that the tremors are from low selenium rather than vitamin E.

            My guy was diagnosed with PSSM but prior to that he was teeth grinding, and had muscle fasticulations, we pulled blood and found his selenium really low........the added selenium stopped the majority of the grinding and all of the muscle fasticulations but still had other unresolved issues.....which finally lead us to PSSM.

            Dalemma

            My horse grinds his teeth when he gets stressed. Did your horse grind randomly?

            Thanks so much for your help and ideas!
            Live in the sunshine.
            Swim in the sea.
            Drink the wild air.

            Comment


            • #7
              http://www.draftresource.com/EPSM/Draft_EPSM_DIets.html

              http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/

              This might help I have been doing a lot of research on PSSM, EPSM.

              My QH just had his first episode and we are waiting for the DNA results to get back.

              Comment


              • #8
                Where are you in CA. I would definitely do a blood work up, as well as have him tested for EPM again.

                Also, almost all horse in CA do not get enough vitamin E. Since he is in CA and had EPM he definitely needs to be supplemented with vitamin E, most likely as much as 5000-10000IUs daily.
                On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have no idea if you can get this feed in CA, but they are good articles:

                  http://www.tributehorsefeeds.com/nut...in-horses.html
                  http://www.tributehorsefeeds.com/ima...icles/pssm.pdf

                  Caitlin
                  Caitlin
                  *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                  http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    DoubleS I'm going through a lot of the same crap right now. My horse had EPM 2 years ago and since bringing her back to work, we've run into problems with what seems to be just generalized muscle pain. She has fasiculations just standing there sometimes. Under saddle she turns into a tense crazy ball, her butt starts to hurt so she freaks out which then makes it hurt more which then makes her freak out more...you get the idea. It's a lot of fun to try and ride out, let me tell you.

                    Anyways, I've changed her diet to make sure she's getting lots of fat and not much sugar, fed every supplement that might help (Vit E, vit C, selenium, quiessence, electrolytes, bla bla), run blood work that all comes back normal for muscle enzymes/vitamin levels/EPM itself, and still it persists. My vet thinks it might just be permanent neurological deficits. We've got a checklist of stuff we're working through before I throw in the towel and retire her at the ripe age of 9. Currently seeing a holistic vet that is adjusting her and feeding her some Traditional Chinese Medicine herb blends. Good luck with your boy, once EPM gets thrown in there nothing is easy.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Agree with Perfect Pony re vit E. I had a mare diagnosed with EMND and was on 8000 IU for three months, dropped to 5000 for a couple of years and is maintaining on 2500 now.
                      Not able to be ridden since (except for pony rides) but happy as a pasture pet. Only has faint muscle tremors if she acts like an idiot in turnout.
                      We caught it before any significant muscle wasting. Always been a hard keeper so really not too much change in feed.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
                        My horse grinds his teeth when he gets stressed. Did your horse grind randomly?

                        Thanks so much for your help and ideas!
                        My horses teeth grinding was strictly due to pain.......since he has been diagnosed with PSSM and put on an appropriate diet there has been no teeth grinding........plus this horse has no stress he is a pasture/paddock puff/babysitter.....also he is too easy going to have anything stress him out

                        Dalemma

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Do a lyme titer
                          Do a mineral vitamin blood panel
                          CBC panel
                          Urine sample
                          Fecal Sample


                          I have been chasing some crazy stuff since NOVEMBER with my gelding and what I know now,
                          I refuse to add a supplement anymore without knowing what you are starting with.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by woops View Post
                            Do a lyme titer
                            Do a mineral vitamin blood panel
                            CBC panel
                            Urine sample
                            Fecal Sample


                            I have been chasing some crazy stuff since NOVEMBER with my gelding and what I know now,
                            I refuse to add a supplement anymore without knowing what you are starting with.
                            Thanks everyone for your responses!

                            I have emailed and called my vet to have blood panels done. What is so frustrating is I don't know what to throw at him as far as supplements, what works and what's bad....

                            Yeah that's is what I remember too about EPM and vit E. I used to supplement it with 5000 IU's for years and a few years ago I cut it trying to cut costs of all the supplements I was feeding him.

                            And I do agree about EPM horses (are special) probably because they are so special they got it to begin with....

                            I used to feed Buckeye diet balancer but it was $18 a bag just in shipping. I need to find something that is local that doesn't get them "up"... both my horses have enough engery for this ole gal.... lol.

                            Any ideas of supplements or diet ideas would be great!

                            Thanks.
                            Live in the sunshine.
                            Swim in the sea.
                            Drink the wild air.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by nappingonthejob View Post
                              DoubleS I'm going through a lot of the same crap right now. My horse had EPM 2 years ago and since bringing her back to work, we've run into problems with what seems to be just generalized muscle pain. She has fasiculations just standing there sometimes. Under saddle she turns into a tense crazy ball, her butt starts to hurt so she freaks out which then makes it hurt more which then makes her freak out more...you get the idea. It's a lot of fun to try and ride out, let me tell you.

                              Anyways, I've changed her diet to make sure she's getting lots of fat and not much sugar, fed every supplement that might help (Vit E, vit C, selenium, quiessence, electrolytes, bla bla), run blood work that all comes back normal for muscle enzymes/vitamin levels/EPM itself, and still it persists. My vet thinks it might just be permanent neurological deficits. We've got a checklist of stuff we're working through before I throw in the towel and retire her at the ripe age of 9. Currently seeing a holistic vet that is adjusting her and feeding her some Traditional Chinese Medicine herb blends. Good luck with your boy, once EPM gets thrown in there nothing is easy.
                              I am soooo sorry you are dealing with this too... I do find Karbo Combo works good for the EPM but now I think I am dealing with vit issues. Ad he's getting older I think his needs are changing. I know mine are! I used to feed Llysine... I might start that again.. but I want to get the blood done first...

                              I will let you know what my vet finds out.... and I hope the herbs work for you. I found they didn't for my horse and found vaccinations caused relapses.
                              Live in the sunshine.
                              Swim in the sea.
                              Drink the wild air.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
                                Yeah that's is what I remember too about EPM and vit E. I used to supplement it with 5000 IU's for years and a few years ago I cut it trying to cut costs of all the supplements I was feeding him.
                                You cannot cut out vitamin E, especially a horse with known neurological issues. Some vets even believe that horses are susceptible to EPM partly because of a deficiency of vitamin E in the first place. All horses not on green pasture daily need supplemented vitamin E, period. Those with neurological deficits need even more, forever.

                                I personally feed good hay, a couple lbs of Elk Grove Stable mix, Platinum Performance, and an additional 2000IUs Vitamin E, that's it.
                                On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
                                  You cannot cut out vitamin E, especially a horse with known neurological issues. Some vets even believe that horses are susceptible to EPM partly because of a deficiency of vitamin E in the first place. All horses not on green pasture daily need supplemented vitamin E, period. Those with neurological deficits need even more, forever.

                                  I personally feed good hay, a couple lbs of Elk Grove Stable mix, Platinum Performance, and an additional 2000IUs Vitamin E, that's it.
                                  Interesting! I noticed his muscle wasting once the rain hit and I didn't put him out on the grass every day.

                                  The Elk Grove Stable mix looks really good. Ingredents my horse isn't allergic to - YAY. This is mostly minerals so there's not much to get them high.. (?)

                                  Which Platinum Performance do you feed?

                                  Thanks for your help.....
                                  Live in the sunshine.
                                  Swim in the sea.
                                  Drink the wild air.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I just feed the regular Platinum Performance (I have a pony, so one scoop a day, a horse gets 2), then add in a couple capsules of 1000IU natural vitamin E.

                                    I like the Stable Mix since it has a small amount of Alfalfa for more protein, and also includes rice bran. It seems to keep horses in good weight without a belly or getting hot.
                                    On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Just wanted to add make sure you are using natural vitamin E. It will say d-alpha NOT dl-alpha.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by dwblover View Post
                                        Just wanted to add make sure you are using natural vitamin E. It will say d-alpha NOT dl-alpha.
                                        I would also make sure you are using the capsule form they are much more effective....I use the human grade ones from Costco.

                                        Dalemma

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X