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Another feed/nutrition question...protein?

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  • Another feed/nutrition question...protein?

    I've upped Rasta's beet pulp by feeding another time during the day (he now gets 3 cups soaked in water, along with 1/2 cup Triple Crown oil and a handful of TC Complete at lunch)...still no gas - YAY! Now onto getting more protein into him...any thoughts about supplements? Forgot to mention, he gets 1 lb of Triple Crown Lite AM/PM along with the BP, won't eat any more BP than that or he'd get more - am thinking of calling Triple Crown tomorrow morning to see if switching to their 30% supplement would take care of protein and minerals/vitamins.

    Any thoughts? Rasta is an OTTB, fairly sane, and I do want to keep him that way but need to make sure he gets what he needs for proper nutrition! He is ridden 5-6 days/week for 45-60 minutes. Right now he's coming back from hock soreness and foot soreness following a 20 minute gallop on asphalt highways so work is not particularly hard...

    I'd love to also try the TC Training Formula but the advertising centers on horses in strenuous work...

    Thanks!!
    ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan

  • #2
    Before you know if he needs more protein, you have to know how much is in his hay. My orchard grass is quite high in protein so I never feel like I have to boost their intake, unless it's a broodmare. Other hays are not as rich in protein.

    But personally I do like the 30% ration balancers for upping the protein content when needed. They have plenty of vit/min as well.

    Still I'd say getbthe hay tested before you decide--when I started doing this I was able to cut down all the "extras" I thought my horses needed (but didn't) and my feed bills dropped accordingly.
    Click here before you buy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Adult horses in work only need about 8-10% protein. Beet pulp is around 8-9%.

      The horses that need more protein are growing babies (no protein doesn't cause OCD ) and mares toward the end of their pregnancy.

      How many pounds does the "cup" measure translate to? I have people tell me they are giving a "scoop" dry volume but then I find out their "scoop" isn't even a grain measure (heaping 3 qt measure of beet pulp pellets is about 5lbs.) it is some piece of Tupperware they got out of their kitchen.

      http://www.extension.org/pages/Nutri...Horses#Protein

      http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AS/AS-429.html

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
        Before you know if he needs more protein, you have to know how much is in his hay. My orchard grass is quite high in protein so I never feel like I have to boost their intake, unless it's a broodmare. Other hays are not as rich in protein.

        But personally I do like the 30% ration balancers for upping the protein content when needed. They have plenty of vit/min as well.

        Still I'd say getbthe hay tested before you decide--when I started doing this I was able to cut down all the "extras" I thought my horses needed (but didn't) and my feed bills dropped accordingly.
        smart idea if the hay consistently came from the same source - will check though as we're getting it now from a smaller dealer and the hay has been much better. I expect they do deal with only a few hay growers (depending on the day of the week Billy can go get hay, we either get timothy or timothy alfalfa. I prefer the latter but many times it's not available...). Thanks, DW!
        ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by Seal Harbor View Post
          Adult horses in work only need about 8-10% protein. Beet pulp is around 8-9%.

          The horses that need more protein are growing babies (no protein doesn't cause OCD ) and mares toward the end of their pregnancy.

          How many pounds does the "cup" measure translate to? I have people tell me they are giving a "scoop" dry volume but then I find out their "scoop" isn't even a grain measure (heaping 3 qt measure of beet pulp pellets is about 5lbs.) it is some piece of Tupperware they got out of their kitchen.

          http://www.extension.org/pages/Nutri...Horses#Protein

          http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AS/AS-429.html
          The next time I go to the grocery store, I will weigh out the BP using the cups...I feed as much as Rasta will eat...at one point he was getting/eating 4 cups (dry measured and then soaked w/8-9 cups water) but then began leaving a LOT!!!!, so I cut back and started adding a cup of TC Complete to entice him to continue with the BP - so far so good and no gas. Thanks for the help!
          ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan

          Comment


          • #6
            I feed a few horses 5lbs dry weight a day. One horse had been getting 8lbs dry weight. I do feed one that won't eat more than 3lbs dry weight at a sitting, it gets left in their stalls over night them to pick at all night long.

            All these horses are in work show hunters and jumpers, TBs and warmbloods, all ages (mine has eaten this since he was 3, he is now 7), the ponies get anything from a taste to 4 lbs wet. Yes, I have weighed it all, wet and dry. I use a 3 quart scoop to measure it out dry, into buckets for some and a trash can for the rest of them, and a 3 quart scoop to measure it out wet.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'd personally would run the numbers for lysine and methionine off some basic feed analysis charts and eval your entire ration. It is easy to supply adequate crude protein but often the protein quality (EAA's) is not adequate. Once you get an idea of where you are at then you can chat with TC horse nutritionist and discuss if there are anything that should be improved. Protein, minerals and more.

              As hay can vary from sample to sample (yes I have run the tests), while it is not a bad idea to test hay I feel the value of doing testing is over rated. Generally speaking we as horse owners do not least cost ration animals in a high production setting. We in fact feed within reasonable excesses based on local and regional knowns. So would there ever be a situation I would test horse hay...sure! Do I do it routinely....no....cuz my horses generally live well into their 30's. They are only useful into their mid to late 20's. And that is a formula I can live with.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Seal Harbor View Post
                Adult horses in work only need about 8-10% protein.
                But you can't look at it like that, because that entirely leaves out the total number of calories a horse eats.

                8% of one horse's caloric intake might be much more than that for another horse who eats fewer calories.

                Protein (and all the other nutrients) are on an absolute level, not a relative level. An average 1100lb horse in moderate work needs about 700gm total crude protein. If he's eating 16,000 calories, that's 19% protein. But if he's eating 25,000 calories due to a higher metabolism, that's 5.5% protein
                ______________________________
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                • #9
                  I doubt you'd see a horse that requires 25,000 calories a day thriving on 700 grams of protein. Meeting their needs? Maybe. Thriving? Doubtful.
                  Click here before you buy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, my point was that a % of protein as a total of the diet isn't a good picture because it leaves out how many calories the horse needs

                    I sooooooo think I did my math wrong I'm sleep deprived and things aren't making a lot of sense right now LOL

                    This should be better: 25lb of grass hay at 800 cal/lb and 9% protein is 980gm protein (and 20,000 calories). More than a light moderately working 1100lb horse needs. And, that's really not a huge amount of calories, considering the average 1100lb horse needs about 16,000 to be a lazy pasture puff.

                    But if that horse eats only 15lb of that same hay, that's 612gm protein (and 12,000 cal) - below the 700gm requirement.

                    That was my only point - 8-10% protein can be too much or too little based on the total calories
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I will add in that most TB's I've dealt with always look better on a higher protein diet. Most nutrition articles & experts will say they don't need a 14% protein but it sure does enhance the bloom & topline on some. I haven't tried the TC 30% but it seems like with the amount of grain you are feeding you need some type of ration balancer. TC Training is good stuff, but it's quite the opposite of TC Lite - so if you're watching out for any metabolic stuff it wouldn't be a good choice (I don't see this mentioned anywhere but not sure what problems you are dealing with).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by goodmorning View Post
                        I will add in that most TB's I've dealt with always look better on a higher protein diet. Most nutrition articles & experts will say they don't need a 14% protein but it sure does enhance the bloom & topline on some. I haven't tried the TC 30% but it seems like with the amount of grain you are feeding you need some type of ration balancer. TC Training is good stuff, but it's quite the opposite of TC Lite - so if you're watching out for any metabolic stuff it wouldn't be a good choice (I don't see this mentioned anywhere but not sure what problems you are dealing with).
                        Totally and not just with TB. A good rule of thumb is if you are not really balancing your entire ration for EAA's and more you need to increase crude protein by 2% minnimun. So now that 10% CP requirement just jumped to 12% or more.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The question was about protein.

                          You want energy add oil or carbohydrates, calories. Horses have protein requirements determined by their life stage and workload. Then there is the quality of protein. Adding alfalfa will increase the protein in the diet but doesn't necessarily mean that all nutrition requirements will be met. It is only one component.

                          http://www.equinews.com/article/equi...n-requirements

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I use the TC Training for an OTTB and it has filled him out nicely. I give him 12 pounds a day plus all he cam eat grass/alfalfa mix. Many people say more protein means more energy. I found the oppisite with him. It seemed to settle him abit.

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