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banamine to help older mare during shoeing?

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    banamine to help older mare during shoeing?

    I know bute is commonly given to older or lame horses to give them a bit of relief to be shod. Since Banamine is also an NSAID, could I use it instead? Or is it not effective for that kind of soreness?

    I just have a bottle of banamine in my fridge that expires in a few months, and am running low on bute. If the banamine will work, I would rather use that.

    #2
    I use banamine for a few of the old ones prior to shoeing. I usually give a gram of bute and 5 cc banamine to the severely crippled ones. Vet feels that it's easier on the stomach. You can give IM, IV, or even orally. There's no reason you can't use it in place of bute for farrier work. You will want to get some more bute to have on hand. Bute is more effective with certain types of pain and injuries. Talk with your vet. Your banamine may still be good and effective past the expiration date.
    Susan B.
    http://canterberrymeadows.com/

    Comment

      Original Poster

      #3
      she's not crippled, just has one hind that gets a little sore if she has to hold the opposite front up for too long. I can trim that front without having to let her put it down and rest, but when I shoe her I have to trim, then trim the other front, then let her put that one front down after every other nail. She's ok with both hinds and the other front, just doesn't like to hold the one front up for too awful long. So I figured I could give her a little chemical assistance

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by NCSue View Post
        I usually give a gram of bute and 5 cc banamine to the severely crippled ones.
        I have been told never, ever give the 2 at the same time, as you risk real kidney damage

        Vet feels that it's easier on the stomach.
        How? Both are NSAIDs that are not causing issues via contact (other than sensitive stomachs), rather via the systemic means by which they both work.

        You can give IM, IV, or even orally.
        There is absolutely no reason to give banamine IM
        ______________________________
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

        Comment


          #5
          what JB said--no benefit to the stomach lining to give reduced doses of both phenylbutazone and flunixin meglumine. They have their effect by the same mechanism of action.
          "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

          ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by JB View Post
            I have been told never, ever give the 2 at the same time, as you risk real kidney damage


            How? Both are NSAIDs that are not causing issues via contact (other than sensitive stomachs), rather via the systemic means by which they both work.


            There is absolutely no reason to give banamine IM
            And plenty of reason not to....like clostridium abcesses.
            Colored Cowhorse Ranch
            www.coloredcowhorseranch.com
            Northern NV

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
              what JB said--no benefit to the stomach lining to give reduced doses of both phenylbutazone and flunixin meglumine. They have their effect by the same mechanism of action.
              But does administering both cause kidney damage? Or, if dosing one or both causes damage in the long term - does the short term benefits outweigh the long term risk? (considering that we give these drugs to horses suffering from old age/infirmity anyway)
              Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
              Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
              -Rudyard Kipling

              Comment


                #8
                there is a horse at a barn next door to ours (albeit VERY poorly managed barn that i have mentioned on her before) where the horse presented with stomach issues and BM immediately assumed colic. this went on for three days before she was transported to UGA where they said if she had gotten one more dose of banamine she would not have been able to be saved. vets went on to scold owner for letting BM give that much banamine and said it is SO very often overused, misused, and overdosed. they said they could not count the number of real colic cases that come in and are too far gone for surgery because they have constantly been given banamine for days on end and symptoms have been masked. so no- i woudnt give her banamine. i would be VERY careful about what you give her. i know these two cases are different, but banamine is not to be considered just a band-aid for any type of pain.

                the horse listed above had peritonitis and almost didn't survive- 5,000 vet bill later, she is doing ok.

                i am not suggesting you let your mare be painful long term, but sometimes i think pain has a very positive function in us and horses and serves to make us careful of the "ouchy" part- which in turn allows healing.
                Jazz- 4.9.01 OTTB, loved since 12.6.09
                Skip- 3.3.91 APHA, i miss you buddy

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by JSwan View Post
                  But does administering both cause kidney damage? Or, if dosing one or both causes damage in the long term - does the short term benefits outweigh the long term risk? (considering that we give these drugs to horses suffering from old age/infirmity anyway)

                  A reduced dose of both given simultaneously, assuming normal hydration, probably doesn't increase the risk of renal compromise, but I doubt it lowers it.

                  As for risk/benefit, that's a judgement call based on the individual case.

                  Old age doesn't necessarily mean renal compromise.
                  And if a horse's life is a bit shorter but far more comfortable with anti-inflammatory medication on board, well, that's a valid tradeoff, IMHO.

                  In the OP's case, I think that either bute or banamine to make the mare more comfortable with the farrier visit is an entirely valid reason to use the drug.
                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    In terms of risk of ulcers or kidney damage, I consider all NSAIDs exactly equivalent.
                    Click here before you buy.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                      A reduced dose of both given simultaneously, assuming normal hydration, probably doesn't increase the risk of renal compromise, but I doubt it lowers it.
                      I guess I was thinking that 1gm of bute AND some banamine really isn't that much of a reduced dose.

                      Still, not something I'd ever risk, unless literally life or death, when you can give regular doses of one, or the other, and not have the potential interaction problems
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                        In terms of risk of ulcers or kidney damage, I consider all NSAIDs exactly equivalent.
                        Me too, regardless of means of administration, in terms of ulcers.

                        But am I really dreaming that combining the two, regardless of hydration status, really increases the risk of kidney issues? I know that dehydration increases the risk with one alone.
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I can't give you chapter and verse, but risk is to some degree dose-dependent, so if you're stacking them for some reason and not reducing the dose of each . . .
                          Click here before you buy.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Two never, nevers:

                            1. Never, never give Banamine IM. It can cause a really nasty injection abscesse. Just google Banimine IM reaction and prepare to be horrified.

                            2. Never, never give Banamine and Bute together. Ever. Google that as well.

                            3. I know I said two, but this is an always. Always ask your vet questions like this. Why? Because people tell you things like: give Banamine IM and give Banamine and Bute together.

                            AEEP: Dangers of stacking drugs
                            Off Topic Discussion about Life, Interests & Politics
                            http://theotherboard.boards.net/

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I give 1 gram of Bute the night before and 1 gram on the morning of the farrier appointment. Seems to really make a difference.
                              Off Topic Discussion about Life, Interests & Politics
                              http://theotherboard.boards.net/

                              Comment

                                Original Poster

                                #16
                                I think some of you missed that this is a one-time dose to help with discomfort during shoeing, not to try to "cure" a colic, or to be given daily for a crippled horse. I have a tub of bute, just running low and would rather use the banamine INSTEAD of the bute, if it will be effective in a one-time dose. Not every day for a month, not a dose of bute and a dose of banamine together, not for a horse with a history of colic instead of having the vet out. An older mare with some minor discomfort during shoeing. Nothing more, nothing less. I can shoe her without, but for her sake, would prefer to give her something to make her more comfortable.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Hampton, I think your OP just got lost in the mix LOL The first reply said they used bute and banamine together. Big controversy over that Then someone suggested banamine IM.
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    NEVER, EVER GIVE BANAMINE IM!!!!!

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I prefer not to get medical information or advice from Google. What, in a nutshell, are the particulars of the NEVER, EVER combination of bute and banamine? Other than it probably being a waste of time?

                                      "Never" is such a dangerous word to use in medicine.

                                      ETA I found the AAEP statement at the bottom of someone's post, thanks. I doubt if the mixing of these drugs is anything close to guaranteeing a dreadful outcome, but I still wouldn't use them together because, well, why bother? It's like taking Motrin and Naprosyn--gigantic waste of time, as they are virtually the same thing.
                                      Click here before you buy.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Hampton Bay View Post
                                        I think some of you missed that this is a one-time dose to help with discomfort during shoeing, not to try to "cure" a colic, or to be given daily for a crippled horse. I have a tub of bute, just running low and would rather use the banamine INSTEAD of the bute, if it will be effective in a one-time dose.
                                        I have a horse that cannot have bute but is okay with banamine. I have used banamine for similar situations with him. I think you'd be doing okay. I tend to think of bute for bone issues (arthritis and the like) and banamine for soft tissue when deciding which to use. But for my one horse, he only gets banamine or equioxx - no bute. He needs a medic alert bracelet.

                                        As for administration, stacking, etc... plenty already posted about that!

                                        Comment

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