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Calling CotH Gurus!!!! video!

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  • Calling CotH Gurus!!!! video!

    New video at http://www.youtube.com/user/mrsmph?f.../0/LUvH2ncMUzg


    Tell me what you see..... Observations, critiques, opinions are welcomed! a few secs of W/T warmup, then WTC....Especially watch right lead canter.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7znwNGVjRvA


    This past June he looked like this:

    http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...01580300pzbaGH



    He is still about 100# underweight. Just NQR. Not lame, but.....not right, either. What do you see in the video??? Thanks!!!
    Last edited by Mrsmph; Sep. 26, 2010, 08:41 PM. Reason: new video!
    Monty & Theo http://community.webshots.com/album/...tneese?start=0

    http://www.raccoonscooteroo.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    To me - he looks stiff in the left hock. He's very cute and I love his weight gain!

    I'm certainly no guru though!

    Comment


    • #3
      Well it is my understanding when you start to evalute lameness the horse should be allowed to carry his head in what ever manner he likes......in other words no side reins.

      I would take the side reins off when cantering and see if he still cross canters.

      My vet always evalutes the horse with out tack in the round pen so all structures of the horse can be seen and then we tack up and then look at the horse under saddle on a loose rein.

      Dalemma

      PS.......nice looking horse

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thank you! He is 13 and moderately arthritic, thus the stiffness. Still, I think there might be more going on there, I just can't pinpoint it. He is on Adequan monthly, after we did the loading dose about a year ago. He has always been a relatively hard keeper. In March of this year his owner ( I lease him) moved him to a new barn. He lost about 200#s in about 2 1/2 months!!!! She moved him out as soon as a spot was available where we're at now. He's been slowly putting the weight back on since. Could it be that he has just been out of work all summer and therefore simply weak behind? Would you work him harder? Really, the hardest stuff we do is some 1st level dressage moves, shoulder in, leg yield, shoulder fore, lengthenings. It really looks to me in the video like he is just not engaging his hind end...How do I correct that? really get after him? Or, is he not engaging because he's sore? uuuggghhh.......Thanks for your input!
        Monty & Theo http://community.webshots.com/album/...tneese?start=0

        http://www.raccoonscooteroo.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Are both of his hocks capped? Just a random question since I've never seen capped hocks in person but that sure is what they look like. Would those affect movement at all?

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by Dalemma View Post
            Well it is my understanding when you start to evalute lameness the horse should be allowed to carry his head in what ever manner he likes......in other words no side reins.

            I would take the side reins off when cantering and see if he still cross canters.

            My vet always evalutes the horse with out tack in the round pen so all structures of the horse can be seen and then we tack up and then look at the horse under saddle on a loose rein.

            Dalemma

            PS.......nice looking horse

            Thank you! Very good point - in fact that is exactly what we did....I lunged him yesterday with no tack at all trying to see if I could pinpoint where he was wonky...I couldn't put my finger on it, so I thought that maybe it would be more apparant if he was "working" harder, or working more....Thus, the tack and side reins...Unfortunately, he still really just looks disengaged to me, either way..Not a difference. Not really using his rear at all, and I cannot tell whether it is because he's sore, or if he's just out of shape and lazy. And he does have recently capped hocks - textbook - he's been kicking the walls This week we've started feeding him before the other horses, and if that doesn't stop it, (he only kicks at feeding time) then on to the kicking chains unless someone has a better alternative....He really needs to gain muscle and stamina, and then I will re-evaluate him. There has been no noticable differrence in his gaits since capping his hocks (about 2 weeks ago). This has been going on much longer, but since he lost all the weight, he's only been in very light work. We wanted to allow him to gain most of the weight back before REALLY getting back into work. My goal is to be fit and healthy enough to ride a decent training level test this coming January Keep them coming folks!!! Thanks!

            eta When I am riding him, he will pick up his right lead, but very quickly (within one time around a lg. dressage arena) wants to switch to the left. I can stop him from swapping, but his right lead canter feels like he is unbalanced and off kilter....
            Last edited by Mrsmph; Sep. 21, 2010, 08:41 PM. Reason: added about riding
            Monty & Theo http://community.webshots.com/album/...tneese?start=0

            http://www.raccoonscooteroo.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm hardly a guru, but fwiw, he seems somewhat stiff behind at the trot and the canter. The walk looks very fluid.

              It's likely that in addition to having some arthritis pain that he's just under-muscled and off-balance. His topline still looks pretty weak (although the weight gain documented is great).

              Given that there might be some arthritis, I'd stop lunging him for a while (can be hard on the joints), and just ride him, possibly on trails or in larger open spaces (so no small circles under saddle either). And also ask the vet about possible use of Legend or Adequan.

              Good luck, he's a cute horse.
              "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Right now he is not being lunged regularly, really we just hack around in the big field, with 2 or 3 days a week working on correct bending and lower level dressage movements. He is currently on adequan monthly, and I am talking with his owner about additional joint supplements. I know he's stiff, but what I can't tell is if it is from being weak and out of work, or pain...He LOVES trotting around on a loose rein hack He gets all stretchy and trots sometimes with his nose near the ground! He always gets a good 20 minutes or so stretching warmup before he is asked for any "work".
                "Happy ears" on an early morning hack.....

                http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...01580300QOOMqs
                Monty & Theo http://community.webshots.com/album/...tneese?start=0

                http://www.raccoonscooteroo.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wow, he looks like an identical twin to a horse I have. I bought him dead lame as a rehab. He could only walk sound. He kinda looked like that for a long time. Basically, after a couple of years of strengthening and conditioning, he's fine. He was basically so stiff and so out of shape he was lame.

                  Monty does not want to step under with his left hind. Does he throw his haunches to the inside when you ride? He may be hurting, or he may be seriously weak. Have you tried just slowly strengthening doing exercises where he has to carry behind? I think if you do this for awhile and he's just weak and out of shape, he will initially be resistant and sore, but will gradually work out of it and get stronger. If he continues to be resistant and off, there's probably something else. I think a lot of lameness can be fixed, mediated or made better just by good strengthening.

                  I get that he lost of lot of weight, but before that you were riding him. Was he like this before? Is this a change in the way he is, or do you know?

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
                    Wow, he looks like an identical twin to a horse I have. I bought him dead lame as a rehab. He could only walk sound. He kinda looked like that for a long time. Basically, after a couple of years of strengthening and conditioning, he's fine. He was basically so stiff and so out of shape he was lame.

                    Monty does not want to step under with his left hind. Does he throw his haunches to the inside when you ride? He may be hurting, or he may be seriously weak. Have you tried just slowly strengthening doing exercises where he has to carry behind? I think if you do this for awhile and he's just weak and out of shape, he will initially be resistant and sore, but will gradually work out of it and get stronger. If he continues to be resistant and off, there's probably something else. I think a lot of lameness can be fixed, mediated or made better just by good strengthening.

                    I get that he lost of lot of weight, but before that you were riding him. Was he like this before? Is this a change in the way he is, or do you know?
                    Good answer. When I began riding him, (nearly a year ago) he was REALLY crooked. He still is, but not nearly as bad (that tells you how crooked he WAS). He was in a bit better shape though, and stronger. Since I've known him, he has been like this, stiff and crooked, it is just exacerbated by the fact that he's been out of work for several months while we try to get the weight back on. The exercises we do mostly are shoulder fore, a little bit of shoulder in (he can only do it for a few steps at a time), and leg yielding on a spiral. Here in south Florida, we don't have any hills , would you suggest ground poles or caveletti to strengthen and built topline? What other exercises would be good for him? I was doing those with him last spring.....Funny, he LOVES to jump, and he "puffs up" when he is approaching even a ground pole. I am hoping that by next summer he is fit enough to do a Hunter Pace without jumping the jumps Thank you for your insight, it is very helpful. Your idea of him being very weak is pretty much along the lines of what I felt was going on with him. I hope and pray that there isn't any other underlying issue ....I guess we'll know after he starts getting into harder work!!! I will try and keep y'all posted on how he's doing
                    Monty & Theo http://community.webshots.com/album/...tneese?start=0

                    http://www.raccoonscooteroo.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Mrsmph--Like I said, I think we have the same horse. They move alike, same history, and same color. My guy was really like that. It took a REALLY long time to get him strong enough to be straight, and if he has his druthers, those haunches pop in so he doesn't have to work so hard. The hard thing about this is that because they're weak, they CAN'T do it, and you can't force them. It takes a year or two to honestly get them strong.

                      Bummer no hills, as that is my number one training favorite. My guy was like riding a board and couldn't even bend his neck. You just can't do that on a hill or uneven trail--they trip. So it forces them to use themselves, but you're not doing the work. It's really hard to take a horse so weak and work him in an arena without it being a fight or you having to be so strong. This is when careful uses of devices can be useful. I used a modified chambon which I tied back on itself to help him support his head and carriage while the rest of it was getting stronger. He just couldn't do it all at the same time.

                      Another clue to the fact that we have twins separated at birth--mine LOVES to jump, too! He gets really happy if we do it. I definitely think poles, cavaletti (raised, you can start on a lunge line to make it easier with some kind of gig for support for him) and jumping is a great idea. He'll have the motivation to want to pay attention. Mine is kind of a slow starter, a guy, who will just kind of not pay attention, like it's too much work for him to concentrate. He needs a lot of variation in transitions up and down, forward and back, changes of directions, over poles, etc. to sort of "wake up" and get all of his parts moving. It's like he needs the stimulus to get all of the connections going to the hind end.

                      If you have any kind of trail where it's not perfect, flat footing, even if you're just walking around, that's probably a good idea. Something where he has to pay attention to his feet and pick them up and has the motivation to do so or trips. I would focus on doing things he's motivated to do and sneaking strengthening into it. If he loves to jump, you can really use that. Besides poles, grids are great because you just point and shoot and it's up to him to figure out how to use his feet and negotiate the distances. You can also use turning to jumps, halting before and after, and things like that that force him to sit. It's really hard to strengthen initially at the trot. I do a lot of forward and back in the canter. If he wants to fall in the down transition, do it into a tight circle so he's forced to sit and use himself to stay balanced.

                      I would just vary a lot and see what works to sort of force him into a situation where he has to sit behind. Work on this awhile, and gradually sort of check where he is with your spirals and shoulder fore and such. He will get tired. You want him to be, so vary it up. Work him a little hard, have a relaxing day, have a forward kick ass day, have a jumping day, have a mellow relax day. Let him tell you when he needs to work a bit harder, when you need to build muscle, and make sure to give him recovery time regularly to let them loosen up. He will be some sore and stiff at times, but you sort of need to push him past that and see if he continues to get stronger or starts to get worse. I'm betting he will get stronger. I think there's very little you can't fix or help with a good strengthening program. Think of what you would do for yourself at a gym.

                      Another hint. My guy was VERY hard to keep straight in the canter with the haunches going in. Trying to push his haunches out or hold him straight didn't work well. When he was crooked, I counterbent him and brought the shoulder in to straighten him out. That works way better for him.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        wow....seriously - every thing you describe your horse to be - that's Monty - to a T! I wonder if I can find out what his bloodlines are....hmmmmm I know he's got some Hanoverian in him, but he has got this weird brand that I cannot identify - shaped like a bell, with a dot in the middle....
                        Monty cannot bend his neck to the right....and he really does get tired FAST when he's made to use his hiney...If I can get 6 or 8 good shoulder in steps tracking his good way, and 2 or 3 his bad way, then we've had a successful ride Monty is a "slow starter" too, and I really need to keep him interested in order for him to really try....Otherwise he's just bored and lazy. We have a 3 acre pasture (where we live that's big ) I can ride him in, we circle around trees and chase butterflies He loves it. I try to do as much work in the pasture and have as much fun in the dressage arena as is possible....Yesterday, I was cantering him on his good lead in the field (left lead) on about a 20m circle, and he had a pretty bad stumble...I didn't come off when his knee hit the ground, and for that I am grateful. But, it reminds me that he really is weak and not too graceful...I quietly walked back into the arena with the good footing to continue our ride
                        I love the ideas you suggested and I am looking forward to trying them. I do think I need to go slow with him....
                        Where are you located? We are in S. Florida....Last I know of Monty is from the Tampa area. Are you on Facebook? I've got lots more Monty pics on there. PM me for info if you like. Thanks again!
                        Monty & Theo http://community.webshots.com/album/...tneese?start=0

                        http://www.raccoonscooteroo.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Have you had any chiropractic, massage, or acupuncture work done on him? May help him loosen up over all.
                          I love cats, I love every single cat....
                          So anyway I am a cat lover
                          And I love to run.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            They may be related. I don't have any paperwork on my guy, but the word is half TB half Hannovarian. I'm almost 100% sure he's Feurst Gotthard because almost every gray Hannovarian around here is FG, and he looks and acts like every FG. I'm in CA (where FG was forever) so I don't know know if he was used much as a stallion on the east coast.

                            My dude is a happy guy and maybe not so lazy as yours. He's very interested in things. He likes to hang and be with people or horses, but has a hard time with more than one thing at a time or change. You need to talk s l o w l y to him sometimes. It took me a long time to teach him that when I'm riding and he sees something, he doesn't have to lift his whole head and look, he can just turn his eyes. When he get confused by something, he just kinda gets stuck in neutral until you wake him up. He can be super sensitive and light, but when he's not paying attention, it sometimes takes a two by four to get his attention. When I got him he'd obviously been mostly in a stall. I had to keep him that way for awhile. When I finally got him into a small pasture with uneven footing, angles, trees and such, he hated it at first. He stumbled all of the time and didn't like the constant stimulation about having to think about walking. Now he thinks it's all cool to have moving space and be part of the herd.

                            I think Beethoven is right, too. I'm sure a chiropractor and good massage would help a lot.

                            I don't do the facebook thing. This is too much of a distraction in life already. I'll PM you about picture exchange, though.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Thanks Beethoven, he gets chiro every 3 months, and a massage every month (wish I did!) He didn't have any of this over the summer when he was really skinny, both chiro and masseuse thought better to wait until he had some meat on him. Now he's back getting it. Now, off to ride!
                              Monty & Theo http://community.webshots.com/album/...tneese?start=0

                              http://www.raccoonscooteroo.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                First of all, what a GOOD BOY!! He really does well with voice commands. To me it looks like he's having trouble getting that right hind under him, I thought he looked better going to the left than the right.

                                I would work on strengthening his back-end and not sure if you said this or not, but he might benefit from some HA injections. I saw you said arthritis, if it's in that hock, injections would definitely help.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Lameness is pretty clearly on the LH. Some short stepping on the RH may be caused by compensating soreness and most likely will resolve when the LH problem does. Are the owners willing to have good vet look at him? Needs to be a lameness specialist though unless you have a very talented general vet (and they certainty are out there, just few and far between)

                                  When you run you hand down his back (don't forget the whole hind end) does he flinch? Could definitely by an injury up high such as SI. Tends to make a horse that just can't engage. The lameness vet could pinpoint that.

                                  When you have a horse that can't travel correctly because of pain it can take a couple of year (if it ever happens) to give them enough strength to overcome it. Alternatively, if the pain can be located and controlled the strengthening time reduces dramatically since the weak areas can be used properly and strengthened directly rather than indirectly through incorrect movement.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Thanks guys. This fall into early winter we are going to concentrate on slowly conditioning him and building strength. If he's not moving significantly better by Jan. or Feb, we will call in the lameness specialist. Owner just doesn't want to do it prematurely and spend big bucks only to be told "you need to strenghten his hind end". We actually had a really good ride this morning. A nice 1/2 hour hack WTC on a loose rein out in the big field Then 20 mins or so in the dressage ring, a few 20 m circles, SI left was great, SI right was non-existant. Right lead canter was SO much better than even just 2 weeks ago. He was actually able to circle on the right lead, which he's not been able to do as of late. I think that the long loose rein WTC warm-up helps. He is really one of those horses who NEEDS a thorough long warmup. He only wanted to swap leads after cantering a few circles on the rt lead , instead of after 15 strides or so. I can feel him gather himself up to switch, and when I don't let him, he's all like "well, shoot...that didn't work...OK FINE Ill stay on this lead...gosh this is hard... grumble grumble." I do try not to push him too hard though, and after he did 2 nice upward transitions and 2 circles, he was done on the right lead. I can tell how hard it is for him, but he wasn't acting like he was in pain, just that it is really hard for him. It's funny, he gets that "I'm concentrating really hard" face whenI ask him to do something that's hard for him. So, I guess we will play it be ear, carefully trying to get him stronger in the rear end...He can be a bit ouchy back there when poked and prodded, so the masseuse says. Hock injections may well be in his near future. Hopefully he can overcome this, in the meantime, we'll enjoy our hacks.
                                    Monty & Theo http://community.webshots.com/album/...tneese?start=0

                                    http://www.raccoonscooteroo.blogspot.com/

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I'm voting Right stifle, and crummy hocks
                                      My horse was similar at the canter before being diagnosed with PSSM, and being put on a program that involves hills 2-3 times a week.
                                      I honestly don't know how to help this guy without hills. not easily anyway.
                                      www.destinationconsensusequus.com
                                      chaque pas est fait ensemble

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
                                        I'm voting Right stifle, and crummy hocks
                                        My horse was similar at the canter before being diagnosed with PSSM, and being put on a program that involves hills 2-3 times a week.
                                        I honestly don't know how to help this guy without hills. not easily anyway.

                                        all I've got to work with are trot poles, caveletti, and a surcingle...South Florida is flat as a pancake....
                                        Monty & Theo http://community.webshots.com/album/...tneese?start=0

                                        http://www.raccoonscooteroo.blogspot.com/

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