Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You're responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it--details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums' policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it's understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users' profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses -- Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it's related to a horse for sale, regardless of who's selling it, it doesn't belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions -- Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services -- Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products -- While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements -- Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be "bumped" excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues -- Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators' discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you'd rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user's membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

DSLD vs "Chronic" Traumatic Hind Suspensories

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    DSLD vs "Chronic" Traumatic Hind Suspensories

    Some background:
    I just bought my old horse back after he'd been gone for a year. I told them I would buy him back for any reason - not a problem - so he's back with me now, thankfully, given the issue that has cropped up.

    He's 14 now, a quarter horse who had done the HUS and WP divisions for years, and has been a little stiff as long as I've owned him (since he was 7). As long as I can remember, he had a small windpuff on the outside of his left hind. When he came back, his hind fetlocks were both swollen. Farrier thought perhaps it was his angles (they were bad when I got him back) I initially thought he was just a bit stocked up (he doesn't move around of his own accord much, despite having an attached paddock). I started to notice small hock sores from him lying down. Fixing the feet didn't seem to help matters, and though he presents as stiff, he doesn't present as "lame". Does not bunny hop at canter, but is reluctant to move forward until a long period of "warming up". This is not unusual, he's always been like this, but he seems stiffer than he used to be. At this point, I was thinking arthritis, maybe some hock issues...it is the age for it.

    I call the vet, anticipating some injections....aaaaand we discover that both hind suspensories are upset, and lesions can be seen on ultrasound (both hinds, outside branch). He did not think it was an injury within the last month.

    His pasterns do look a little dropped, but it's hard for me to remember what they looked like before, having not seen the horse for a year. He does NOT have long pasterns by any stretch of the imagination, and he's not a flexible guy. However, when I think about the rest of the presentation - I've had him vetted multiple times for being NQR. Prior to his sale, I had a full lameness workup, and everything was fine, the vet just said he was stiff. He did develop an allergy right after I sold him, which he had never had before, but I had just moved him across the country, so I chalked that up to new allergens. I doubt that the folks I sold him to worked him all that hard, they had a little kid riding him, and he's just not the kind of horse you can really "overdo" it with, with the exception of leaving him in the pasture, which he hates. There's a chance it's related to his care while he was there, but both hind suspensories? And no - I don't think they knew. They are good people, just beginners, so they probably had no clue there was an issue at all.

    The vet recommended Stem Cell combined with PRP, plus shockwave. I've booked it, but I'm a little conflicted. I'd hate to subject him to a bunch of medical stuff that ends up "not working" only to have to put him down afterward. 14 is still young, but he's not 6. If it's DSLD it's a downward slide (no pun intended) anyway. That being said, he's a very very useful horse. He's broke to death, and the horse that I go to when I want to have a "fun" ride of the horses I own. Could this buy him more time? Maybe. But I'm having trouble finding stats on treating middle-aged horses with DSLD. Most of the articles and experiences that I've read about are either young horses, or dealing with the final years of the older horse.

    He's already on a joint supplement with MSM (which he has been on since I got him, actually, which leads me to believe that he might have *always* been like this and the folks that sold him to me weren't super honest), and I just added bute-less to his mix.

    So - does anyone have any useful experiences you can share? Opinions? Care advice?

    #2
    Oh no, sorry you are dealing with it.

    Some vets diagnose DSLD (now called ESPA, as it's recognized to be systemic and not limited to just the limbs) by ultrasound, as the fraying of the suspensories under film is usually telling.. but the only real way to diagnose it is by nuchal ligament biopsy, which is not exactly harmless, quite invasive, and hard to watch.

    Because ESPA is degenerative, most care is palliative, keeping the horse comfortable. That being said, keeping their bodies conditioned and in work is often good for them. See what your vet says regarding retirement - every ESPA case is different, but I have known a few now that were kept in light work until it was detrimental for them to do so.

    Staying on top of the feet is imperative, as ESPA can be hastened by things like chronic discomfort and even illness.

    As much turnout time as possible - 24/7 is best, to keep inflammation down and horses in condition.

    If he is uncomfortable, no reason to not do stem cell therapies and PRP if it is within your budget. It will make him feel better.
    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

    Comment


      #3
      Interesting! The issues are down in the outside branches, not up in the body of the suspensory? How does his shoeing look? Does he flex badly in his hocks or stifles? Does he block out to the suspensory branches? Perhaps he's moving differently because of pain somewhere else, and these injuries are secondary to that.

      Without a definitive diagnosis of DSLD, major pain, or fetlocks severely dropped, I'd certainly give rehab a chance. If money were no object, I'd do shockwave and stem cells because I've had luck with those treatments in the past. But there is nothing wrong with doing just shockwave, or just rest/ice/time and good hoof care.

      Comment

        Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by joiedevie99 View Post
        Interesting! The issues are down in the outside branches, not up in the body of the suspensory? How does his shoeing look? Does he flex badly in his hocks or stifles? Does he block out to the suspensory branches? Perhaps he's moving differently because of pain somewhere else, and these injuries are secondary to that.

        Without a definitive diagnosis of DSLD, major pain, or fetlocks severely dropped, I'd certainly give rehab a chance. If money were no object, I'd do shockwave and stem cells because I've had luck with those treatments in the past. But there is nothing wrong with doing just shockwave, or just rest/ice/time and good hoof care.
        Great questions - the main issues are down in the outside branch, not up in the body. He is barefoot behind (although the vet recommended a special shoe) and the farrier was able to fix his angles prior to seeing the vet (a week or two ago). He was balanced poorly side-to-side in both the fronts and the hinds and I seem to remember the farrier saying he was low on the outside and high on the inside on the hinds, which would correlate with a potential injury. I'm not 100% on that though, as again, I thought he was just kind of arthritic and his feet looked like crap. He also had long toes the whole way around and the heels looked a bit underrun, but they look much better post-farriery. We need to get the special shoes, but the vet visit was just yesterday and the farrier hasn't been able to be out yet.

        We did not block. The vet palpated and the reaction was super dramatic, then flexed with similar dramatic effects, then ultrasounded. He does not look "off" except during the flex tests but he looks stiff as all get out. He said to be more definitive we could do an MRI, but the lesions were pretty obvious on the ultrasound (I could see them, and I'm no ultrasound tech). So we know we're dealing with *at least* the suspensories. I have a suspicion that navicular will be on the plate at some point as he is halter-bred on the bottom and reining-bred on top, but with the halter-type body (and subsequent itty bitty feet) which, I'm not going to lie, is part of my hesitation. If we fix the suspensories, is he still going to be in pain because of the 00 feet that he has on his 1200 lb body? It's hard to even tell he's in "pain" unless he has been in pain as long as I've known him. He cleans up his dinner, he loves his peppermints, his ears are still forward at the trot, he only pins them when asked to canter, and even then he is cranky but complies. He's rested a hind foot since he was a 3 year old - I've seen pictures of him from his early show life, in the winners' circle, cocking a foot - but I've always chalked that up to his extreme mellow-ness.

        I don't have any great conformation pictures handy, but the first two pictures of him are as a 5 and 6 year old before I got him. You can see that he wants to unweight that LH.

        The yellow-shirted fourth picture is of him when I had him. He almost looks a bit upright there.

        The fifth and sixth picture are from a few weeks ago, and you can see that he looks dropped some but this was before the farrier work (he was ridden very lightly).

        Now all pastern angles are starting to look a bit whacky to me, so I feel like I'm going a bit crazy

        Click image for larger version

Name:	5yearold.jpg
Views:	170
Size:	30.4 KB
ID:	10738225Click image for larger version

Name:	6yearold.jpg
Views:	171
Size:	19.0 KB
ID:	10738226Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0485.JPG
Views:	189
Size:	12.3 KB
ID:	10738227Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0484.jpg
Views:	190
Size:	11.1 KB
ID:	10738222Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0483.jpg
Views:	183
Size:	15.5 KB
ID:	10738224

        Attached Files

        Comment


          #5
          I had one that had to be put down at only 7 due to dsld, and his were the branches also. Hope your guy just needs a better farrier!
          "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
          carolprudm

          Comment


            #6
            I have an 18 yr old oldenburg mare. Three + years ago she was "NQR" under saddle; diagnosed with hind branch suspensory desmitis (sp?) both legs. One side was both branches, the other side just outside if I remember correctly. For a bunch of reasons I chose retirement; the cost of treatments was not IMO justified; extensive stall rest and rehab did not sound realistic. Vet said " not certain, but the fact that both legs impacted and what I see on ultrasounds, could be degenerative". Fast forward, she is turned out 12 hours/day, shod in back with support and barefoot in front. Her hind legs have become more post like and fetlocks have dropped some but not horrible. She apparently still does a periodic gallop around and is otherwise fine. I'm convinced she will live to be 100 to spite me (there is history here...) But she has not been ridden or otherwise stressed. On 1/2 equioxx per day.

            Comment

            Working...
            X