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Horse I gave to a friend being starved...advice please

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    #41
    Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
    What a lucky horse to have someone like you OP. Thanks for keeping tabs on her.
    Agree
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

    Comment


      #42
      Originally posted by WildLittleWren View Post

      That is a brilliant idea. Heck, I could even have the local feed store deliver it to her door. Brilliant idea thank you SonnysMom.
      From your update above, OP, it sounds like you had wonderful success in opening the owner's eyes to the fact that the mare isn't doing so well, and that per her follow up note to you, she has taken every single one of your suggestions: a veterinary appointment, an immediate feed improvement, and fly protection. Do you think she's lying to you? If no, how do you think having your suggestions delivered to her doorstep when she's already implemented them will be received? Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but I would be incredibly insulted if I were in her shoes. If you do think she's lying to you, what benefit does direct delivery have?

      The owner put on her big girl pants, listened open-mindedly to your diplomatic suggestions, and then implemented them all. Take that as a positive sign until she gives you a reason to believe otherwise. Having the food delivered directly to her door is a solution to a different problem than the one all the current evidence suggests you're having. Just my $0.02.
      The plural of anecdote is not data

      Comment


        #43
        Originally posted by SecondInCommand View Post

        From your update above, OP, it sounds like you had wonderful success in opening the owner's eyes to the fact that the mare isn't doing so well, and that per her follow up note to you, she has taken every single one of your suggestions: a veterinary appointment, an immediate feed improvement, and fly protection. Do you think she's lying to you? If no, how do you think having your suggestions delivered to her doorstep when she's already implemented them will be received? Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but I would be incredibly insulted if I were in her shoes. If you do think she's lying to you, what benefit does direct delivery have?

        The owner put on her big girl pants, listened open-mindedly to your diplomatic suggestions, and then implemented them all. Take that as a positive sign until she gives you a reason to believe otherwise. Having the food delivered directly to her door is a solution to a different problem than the one all the current evidence suggests you're having. Just my $0.02.
        I agree.

        Comment

          Original Poster

          #44
          Originally posted by SecondInCommand View Post

          From your update above, OP, it sounds like you had wonderful success in opening the owner's eyes to the fact that the mare isn't doing so well, and that per her follow up note to you, she has taken every single one of your suggestions: a veterinary appointment, an immediate feed improvement, and fly protection. Do you think she's lying to you? If no, how do you think having your suggestions delivered to her doorstep when she's already implemented them will be received? Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but I would be incredibly insulted if I were in her shoes. If you do think she's lying to you, what benefit does direct delivery have?

          The owner put on her big girl pants, listened open-mindedly to your diplomatic suggestions, and then implemented them all. Take that as a positive sign until she gives you a reason to believe otherwise. Having the food delivered directly to her door is a solution to a different problem than the one all the current evidence suggests you're having. Just my $0.02.
          True. That is another way to look at it. I don't think she's lying, she sent me a photo with the fly gear on, and she told me how she dived into the grain. So, for now, perhaps I will just sit back, and make sure I have a good excuse to go over and visit once a week.

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by WildLittleWren View Post

            True. That is another way to look at it. I don't think she's lying, she sent me a photo with the fly gear on, and she told me how she dived into the grain. So, for now, perhaps I will just sit back, and make sure I have a good excuse to go over and visit once a week.
            Maybe the feed delivery could be useful after you move if the new owner requested help?

            Comment


              #46
              OP - Just a question - you mentioned in the first post about a back issue, hunters bump that has gotten worse and that the mare was in pain. If that is true and nothing is being done on that, isn't it possible she wont improve? Not picking here by any means but it seems like you covered everything else.

              Comment


                #47
                Originally posted by mmeqcenter View Post
                The hair loss sounds like sweet itch, and they can absolutely drop weight when they’re that uncomfortable and itchy from the gnats. It can be hard for people to get control of, and if it took effect slowly she may only just now be noticing how drastic the weight loss is. What is she treating the skin issue with? I’d get this mare a head-to-toe fly sheet or keep her inside with a high velocity fan during the day, including dusk and dawn when the gnats are the worst.
                And lots of fly spray. Some can do without the fly sheet or fan if they’re fly sprayed AM and PM with an oil-based spray.
                Agree with this. I have one with sweet itch.. For several years after he came to me, it was literally a daily battle to keep him comfortable. It was heartbreaking to watch him itch and rub. With management changes, he is in so much better shape and truly a happy camper. I few things I would suggest (beyond the head to tail w/ belly wrap fly sheet); first, improved nutrition as you have already noted - add ground flax to the diet. It really improved the quality of his hair coat and his skin. Also MSM (which is quite cheap) and aloe vera pellets. Both help control the inflammation and as a result the itching & rubbing too.

                Keep her inside during the gants most active times - dawn & dusk. It has meant mine has about 2 hours less turnout time than he originally had, but the trade-off is totally worth it.

                Uckele has several excellent products in their Zephyr's Garden line that have worked very well for us - their natural citronella fly spray (I used the "plus" formulation) and the anti itch salve on any hot spots. They are both non-chemical, so that might appeal to your friend and encourage her to use them too.

                As suggested above, these are all items you could order and have sent directly to your friend. Good luck. It is good of you to have such ongoing concern for the mare.

                Comment


                  #48
                  Originally posted by WildLittleWren View Post

                  True. That is another way to look at it. I don't think she's lying, she sent me a photo with the fly gear on, and she told me how she dived into the grain. So, for now, perhaps I will just sit back, and make sure I have a good excuse to go over and visit once a week.
                  What will do when you move in a few months? You will be too far away to physically check on the horse.

                  Comment

                    Original Poster

                    #49
                    Originally posted by walkinthewalk View Post

                    What will do when you move in a few months? You will be too far away to physically check on the horse.
                    Luckily I have a couple of people at the boarding barn like a half mile from her house. However, getting them there may be an issue, as I stated above, she is pretty introverted. But, without permission to take the mare back, there is really nothing I can do legally. So, I am doing my best with what I can.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      OP, you're doing all the right things to allow the owner to feel comfortable coming to you for advice if she continues to have problems. Your continued empathetic ear, thoughtful approach, and respect of the owner are the best way to have her volunteer information to you if something's not going well and she wants to bounce ideas off of someone. You have also succeeded on another incredibly important point - you've gotten her to involve her vet, so she now has a professional in the mix. I hope this all is of great comfort to you. You've been a good friend to both the owner and the mare.
                      The plural of anecdote is not data

                      Comment

                        Original Poster

                        #51
                        Well a turn of events over the weekend. Got another call Saturday from my friend, apparently one of the people who had raised concerns, is a neighbor. She said she has seen zero hay in the pasture for her (its all dirt) except for 1 day she threw her a tiny pile, and that she is going to call animal control today. I am trying to lie low over the next couple of days to see what happens, I want the mare's owner to reach out to me if she needs help or determines after the visit from animal control that she is in over her head. I certainly don't want her thinking I myself called animal control, as I have honestly been trying to help remedy the situation without the involvement of animal control. However, it is now out of my hands and I feel I need to stay out of it for the next few days and see if she comes to me after animal control visits her property. The lady is also reaching out to the BLM, but I do know BLM will not legally get involved, as she is titled and no longer owned by the government, and they will defer to local animal control.

                        I did have my friend pass along all of the info on what the mare's owner is doing to remedy the shape the mare is in, I wanted her to be aware that the mare's owner is taking steps to try to get weight on her, and about the impending vet visit. It is good to find out that one of the people involved is a close neighbor. That does mean someone is keeping their eye on the mare other than just myself. I can get over there about once a week but anything more is difficult with my schedule currently.

                        Comment


                          #52
                          I can say that if my neighbors looked in on my horses sometimes they would say I do not give them any hay either.

                          If I put a full small square (40ish pounds) in a small hole hay net out, for two horses, the one horse will stand there eating all morning until it is gone. By early afternoon there is no hay left. (There will be lots and lots and lots of manure to go along with the lots of hay consumption.)

                          This is just my way of saying, unless someone is standing there all the time it is hard to know how much hay is really given.

                          Comment

                            Original Poster

                            #53
                            Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                            I can say that if my neighbors looked in on my horses sometimes they would say I do not give them any hay either.

                            If I put a full small square (40ish pounds) in a small hole hay net out, for two horses, the one horse will stand there eating all morning until it is gone. By early afternoon there is no hay left. (There will be lots and lots and lots of manure to go along with the lots of hay consumption.)

                            This is just my way of saying, unless someone is standing there all the time it is hard to know how much hay is really given.
                            I agree. I feed mine out of slow feed hay nets and they get nets refilled 3x a day. However, there are a couple hour stretches where it would appear I don't hay at all. Mine are chunky monkeys so they have to stay limited, but also, mine are in good, ahem, very round, condition. Unfortunately my hands are tied, this person was bound and determined to call AC today, so I'm just sitting here on standby should the mare's owner need me. Who knows, they may not even show up, a lot of time they don't out here...even when it is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that horses need to be confiscated to survive. I tried by giving my friend the information that steps are being taken to get the mare in better shape to pass along to her, but apparently she did call AC today (my friend texted me to tell me she placed the call).

                            Comment


                              #54
                              If her ribs/ spine are clearly visible then she should have hay available to the mare 24/7. Just adding feed and not increasing the hay isn't going to accomplish anything. Did you see hay when you were there? Does the mare have to compete with her other 2 horses for the hay she does put out?

                              Honestly , if she is this clueless I would try and get the mare back.

                              Comment

                                Original Poster

                                #55
                                Originally posted by candyappy View Post
                                If her ribs/ spine are clearly visible then she should have hay available to the mare 24/7. Just adding feed and not increasing the hay isn't going to accomplish anything. Did you see hay when you were there? Does the mare have to compete with her other 2 horses for the hay she does put out?

                                Honestly , if she is this clueless I would try and get the mare back.
                                Funny thing is, she isn't clueless. She has had horses for at least 15 years. Her other horses always looked fine, other than some occasional mild skin allergies in the summer, or she would have never been an option for my mare. I did see hay there, but not out in the pasture. She usually has a round bale out in the pasture, but I didn't see one the last time I was out, nor the time before. She does feed soaked alfalfa cubes on top of the coastal round bale she usually has out. She does feed grain separately in stalls. She has plenty of ways for this mare to be hayed separately as well, between the stalls and 3 different paddocks she has.

                                At this point, there is no way I will pry this mare back from her. I have repeatedly offered, my only other option is to demand and well, that's not going to work with her. When I offered the other day when I came out and saw her condition, she said I would have to pry her from her cold, dead hands because she loves her and she is going nowhere. I really have no legal recourse. I do not believe she ever changed her title to her name, but I did give her the title and she has since lost it. I do not have possession of her current coggins nor her title. There is no bill of sale because it was between friends, and I gave her her title and coggins as proof of ownership.

                                Can anyone see any loopholes here where I can do more?

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  Steal it back? That won’t work though as the owner of record you could apply for new title as lost I think if she doesn’t have it either. If the horse were a car possession is unimportant, she’d have to convince the DMV that there is a chain of title with possession of your title, usually signed off, or a bill of sale. Of course then it becomes stolen with all that unpleasantness if I you can’t convince her to give the car or in this case the horse back. Has she been keeping him current on a Coggins or are you the last recorded owner?

                                  I think the neighbor has overstepped, not necessarily by calling you the first time though you seemed terribly distressed, but by not waiting a month or letting you help your friend handle it. I used to drag a bale down for the two of mine in the AM and it would be cleaned up quick. Otherwise you don’t know And neither does neighbor if she’s shorting the hay or one of them is gobbling it. That being said AC is likely to be nothing more than a nuisance that will accept a letter from your friend that she and you And the vet, have an ongoing plan for a horse with pre existing conditions.

                                  This is kind of a sticky wicket for you, especially since you are moving.
                                  Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
                                  Incredible Invisible

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    Can you relay it to her that there is a neighbor concerned and calling AC? And that you’re just trying to give her a heads up? Then you can also tell her to put a round bale out in the field just so if and when AC does show up, it doesn’t give them anything to complain about. And maybe give her the name and number of someone who will deciliter a round bale to her field?

                                    Also, IMO if this horse sounds like it needs HAY first before you add grain. If the horse has hay 24/7 and is still skinny then you go ahead and add grain to the diet but grain is not a replacement for forage.

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      What a strange attitude! She loves a horse, but won't feed her enough. Budding hoarder?

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        I am with ML Oaks here. People can be really weird sometimes. I would not give her a heads up about animal control. This is a mustang and they are easy keepers so adequate half way decent hay should keep her in good flesh. I don't have a mustang but my horses are really fat just on grass hay and a little pasture. They do get a little ration balancer but I could drop that and they would still be overweight.

                                        I have known horses with sweet itch - they rubbed themselves till they looked like crap but none of them lost weight from it. I don't know what you can do really since you no longer own the mare. And that sucks too. Maybe if she gets enough feedback from different people she will change how she is caring for the horse. I hope so!

                                        Comment

                                          Original Poster

                                          #60
                                          Originally posted by SusanO View Post
                                          I am with ML Oaks here. People can be really weird sometimes. I would not give her a heads up about animal control. This is a mustang and they are easy keepers so adequate half way decent hay should keep her in good flesh. I don't have a mustang but my horses are really fat just on grass hay and a little pasture. They do get a little ration balancer but I could drop that and they would still be overweight.

                                          I have known horses with sweet itch - they rubbed themselves till they looked like crap but none of them lost weight from it. I don't know what you can do really since you no longer own the mare. And that sucks too. Maybe if she gets enough feedback from different people she will change how she is caring for the horse. I hope so!
                                          Yes I feel like my hands are tied and it is breaking my heart. This mare was my everything for three years. The ONLY reason I let her have her was because she was a friend and her other two horses have always been well cared for, look good, etc. This mare would have gone nowhere else. It's heartbreaking to see her in such a state, because when she was with me she was shiny, fat, healthy, just an absolutely beautiful mustang. She stayed fat on coastal hay and the minimum amount of ration balancer. I never had weight issues with her. So its either parasites, something seriously wrong with her, or lack of feed/care.

                                          It's like..the horse looks like a completely different horse, she's in a sad state, you say you love her, so either step up to the dang plate or hand her back over to me. I would have NEVER let her get to this state in the first place. As soon as the mare started dropping weight I would have had a vet out. She would have never ended up in this sad condition. It just wouldn't have got to this point.

                                          Apparently animal control has not been out yet, unless she just hasn't said anything to me. I am not giving a heads up because no one wants to be identified or even remotely attached to the call. Apparently the neighbor says they have a bunch of guns and her husband has a temper, so they want to stay as removed from the situation as possible. They do not want anything escalating or falling back on them. My heart is breaking for this mare. Other than keep an open line of communication with her, and keep an eye on the mare and continue giving advice and continue repeating that I will gladly take the mare back, I just don't think there is anything else I can do.

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