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Negative palmer angle

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    Negative palmer angle

    Would love to hear some success stories from people that have dealt with negative palmers angles!

    I have a young horse that just started under saddle at the beginning of the year and got diagnosed with a slight negative palmers angle on left front. It has gotten worse by a degree about 5 months later for a total of 1.3 degrees. We put shoes on, small wedge pad to lift 3-4 degrees, and equipak underneath for frog support, but no change in lameness over the last 4-5 days after shoeing, even with bute. I know this is a quick turn around to see noticeable difference, but he now moves horribly with the steel shoes on ontop of still being lame.

    Curious what people did to correct their negative palmer angle horses. I have a gut feeling the farrier has played a part in this since it has gotten worse, not better. I have to change farriers anyways regardless of if this is farrier induced, but hard to feel optimistic from what I have read. Perhaps I am just over worrying!

    #2
    My horse xrayed NPA in his hinds in Feb. 2019. He originally was barefoot behind. We put him in regular steel with a 2deg. leather wedge rim pad. The difference was immediate and continued improving over time. I think there is so much variation in the degree of NPA, sensitivity of the horse, and length of time they are NPA that you will get different answers and information from everyone because it just varies so much. For example my horse wasn’t SUPER NPA, not like some xrays I’ve seen online, but he’s also a very sensitive soul so it doesn’t take a lot for him to show discomfort.

    I will say I can tell when my horse goes longer than he should in a shoeing cycle now because I can feel a difference in his hind end. Angles will go wonky if you go too long, so I have to be really sure to keep him at a six week cycle maximum.

    Comment

      Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by skipollo View Post
      My horse xrayed NPA in his hinds in Feb. 2019. He originally was barefoot behind. We put him in regular steel with a 2deg. leather wedge rim pad. The difference was immediate and continued improving over time. I think there is so much variation in the degree of NPA, sensitivity of the horse, and length of time they are NPA that you will get different answers and information from everyone because it just varies so much. For example my horse wasn’t SUPER NPA, not like some xrays I’ve seen online, but he’s also a very sensitive soul so it doesn’t take a lot for him to show discomfort.

      I will say I can tell when my horse goes longer than he should in a shoeing cycle now because I can feel a difference in his hind end. Angles will go wonky if you go too long, so I have to be really sure to keep him at a six week cycle maximum.
      Agreed for my guy as well - my guy doesn’t look as negative as other x rays I have seen as well. Considering he is only 1.3 degrees negative, to my understanding this is pretty low grade. I like the idea of a rim pad...He has some caudal foot pain due to the negative angle, so I am thinking the pads aren’t helping if it is putting excessive pressure on his heels, leading to him still being lame.

      What do you do with your horse? Was his prognosis good for a full riding career? I’m hoping this horse can continue to go on and have a full jumping career. The vet hasn’t said otherwise and he’d be honest if I needed to rethink his career, but can’t help to feel frustrated to be encountering this.

      Comment


        #4
        I’m struggling with this for my big guy who is 18h (both his parents were normal sized so I didn’t do it on purpose). He wears a size 5 shoe. But even w a wedge it just crushed his heel. He got a little heel sore lately. Glued on aluminum so the farrier could really put the shoe where he wanted (we are struggling w hoof wall quality for a myriad of other reasons). That seemed to help the angle as he could cut the toe back more aggressively. I rested him packed w Magic cushion, painted soles w Venice turpentine and stand him on a pemf mat daily. Also he’s on isoxuprene for a bit. Feels pretty good after 10 days
        if you horse is foot sore from the NPA pack him and treat him for that. If it’s now a soft tissue injury that can be another matter.
        good luck!

        Comment

          Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by EmilyM View Post
          I’m struggling with this for my big guy who is 18h (both his parents were normal sized so I didn’t do it on purpose). He wears a size 5 shoe. But even w a wedge it just crushed his heel. He got a little heel sore lately. Glued on aluminum so the farrier could really put the shoe where he wanted (we are struggling w hoof wall quality for a myriad of other reasons). That seemed to help the angle as he could cut the toe back more aggressively. I rested him packed w Magic cushion, painted soles w Venice turpentine and stand him on a pemf mat daily. Also he’s on isoxuprene for a bit. Feels pretty good after 10 days
          if you horse is foot sore from the NPA pack him and treat him for that. If it’s now a soft tissue injury that can be another matter.
          good luck!
          Thanks for the advice! My guy is pretty large pushing 16.3hh at 4 and wears a size 4 shoe! But I think you have me beat by quite a lot

          He has magic cushion under the pads in the front part of his hooves. Standard practice for my farrier. I asked if we could pull the pour in equipak from under the leather wedge and just put all magic cushion in, as my other horse goes like this, but farrier said not enough frog support and thinks we should try a softer equipak. I really would love to try glue ons, this horse seems uncomfortable with the heavy steel shoes but farrier said no aluminums up front. I’m at loss here for trying something else because the farrier keeps shutting it down.

          Honestly am half tempted to go back to being barefoot. I think the horse was more comfortable barefoot than not, but think we are past being able to get the angle up barefoot anymore. I should’ve listened to my gut back in April when this first arose and the farrier blew off and made a comment that had me questioning him all along.

          I am wondering if soft tissue is involved since this has gone on for so long and farrier clearly hasn’t been adequately trimming for the NPA to get worse.

          Comment


            #6
            My new horse was mildly lame on lf due to npa. The mis alignment was causing some inflammation of the sesamoid bone according to my vet. She said the palmer angle is not set, it needs to be the angle the horse needs to keep the bones above in alignment. Mine was put in 4 deg wedges, no pads he went immediately sounder. And he's on a 5 week cycle. So far so good, we are hoping to be able to change the hoof angle and eventually get rid of the wedges. Mine doesnt have a problem with sole depth, i think that is why you usually put a pad in?

            ETA my farrier is working with my vet, they used xrays during shoeing to set the wedge angle.

            Comment


              #7
              You need a better farrier, if this one is just shutting you down. One who will work with your vet, and use xray’s to guide.
              There are fairly recent threads on this here on COTH. I can’t look them up for you as I’m on my phone but maybe someone else can.

              Comment

                Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by Obsidian Fire View Post
                You need a better farrier, if this one is just shutting you down. One who will work with your vet, and use xray’s to guide.
                There are fairly recent threads on this here on COTH. I can’t look them up for you as I’m on my phone but maybe someone else can.
                Yes, I am already onto a new farrier. He does a wonderful job with my mare who has a clubbed foot...not so much this one. He has been using xrays and working with my vet though, so can’t complain on that end. He just shuts down all my “ideas” but then again I am not a farrier and he is more knowledgeable in this scenario.

                I tried looking up some threads, but also on my phone so perhaps that’s why I couldn’t find much.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by ThoroughbredLuver View Post

                  Agreed for my guy as well - my guy doesn’t look as negative as other x rays I have seen as well. Considering he is only 1.3 degrees negative, to my understanding this is pretty low grade. I like the idea of a rim pad...He has some caudal foot pain due to the negative angle, so I am thinking the pads aren’t helping if it is putting excessive pressure on his heels, leading to him still being lame.

                  What do you do with your horse? Was his prognosis good for a full riding career? I’m hoping this horse can continue to go on and have a full jumping career. The vet hasn’t said otherwise and he’d be honest if I needed to rethink his career, but can’t help to feel frustrated to be encountering this.
                  Oh yeah, he was never off work and once he was more comfortable he’s fully back 100%. I just have to stay on top of his angles and monitor him. We were planning our move up to 1.0m this season but then corona happened but physically he is more than capable of working/jumping/everything.

                  I will say my horse was never lame from his NPA, he was uncomfortable and not happy in work, but he was never limping lame. I had the vet out to X-ray because he didn’t seem right but wasn’t “lame” either. NPA isn’t a death sentence, as long as you get it under control it will be okay. WAY more horses have it than people realize.

                  Comment

                    Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by suzyq View Post
                    My new horse was mildly lame on lf due to npa. The mis alignment was causing some inflammation of the sesamoid bone according to my vet. She said the palmer angle is not set, it needs to be the angle the horse needs to keep the bones above in alignment. Mine was put in 4 deg wedges, no pads he went immediately sounder. And he's on a 5 week cycle. So far so good, we are hoping to be able to change the hoof angle and eventually get rid of the wedges. Mine doesnt have a problem with sole depth, i think that is why you usually put a pad in?

                    ETA my farrier is working with my vet, they used xrays during shoeing to set the wedge angle.
                    Did you use a wedge shoe to get the 4 degree wedge with no pads? I was told a pad of some sort was necessary for the frog support for my guy. I am not opposed to a pad, but would love to eventually get rid of wedges also. However, my farrier told me the horse will be in them forever

                    I don’t think it’s good my horse now moves like crap AND isn’t any sounder after shoeing. I know it doesn’t help this is his first set of shoes, but I’ve seen plenty of young horses with their first set of shoes and none move “crappier” like he has. He went from the hack winner to probably not even pinning. Definitely not important, but just as a point of reference for how much his gait as changed.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      IME this is a symptom of long toes and low/underrun heels. You need a farrier who understands how to correct/manage it. If it has gotten worse then your current farrier does not along with many others who don't. And wedges if not used correctly will only crush the heels further and can cause lameness.

                      Where are you located? Maybe we can help you find someone that can help.
                      Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
                      Quiet Miracle 2010 16.1h OTTB Bay Gelding
                      "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

                      Comment

                        Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by BoyleHeightsKid View Post
                        IME this is a symptom of long toes and low/underrun heels. You need a farrier who understands how to correct/manage it. If it has gotten worse then your current farrier does not along with many others who don't. And wedges if not used correctly will only crush the heels further and can cause lameness.

                        Where are you located? Maybe we can help you find someone that can help.
                        I figured, and this thread is just confirming my suspicions. I wish I would have listened to my gut sooner. I didn’t think things look right, but gave the farrier the benefit of the doubt.

                        I’m currently in NE Ohio, but will be moving down in Jupiter, FL Next week with the horses. If anyone knows someone, I would GREATLY appreciate it!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Here is a good article by Vance Glenn on what underrun heels are, how it happens etc. The foot in the article is very drastic and I hope your boy isn't this bad, but it help you get an understanding of what's going on.
                          https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/hea...un-heels-11569
                          Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
                          Quiet Miracle 2010 16.1h OTTB Bay Gelding
                          "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by ThoroughbredLuver View Post

                            I figured, and this thread is just confirming my suspicions. I wish I would have listened to my gut sooner. I didn’t think things look right, but gave the farrier the benefit of the doubt.

                            I’m currently in NE Ohio, but will be moving down in Jupiter, FL Next week with the horses. If anyone knows someone, I would GREATLY appreciate it!
                            Okay... will see what I can find
                            Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
                            Quiet Miracle 2010 16.1h OTTB Bay Gelding
                            "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by ThoroughbredLuver View Post

                              I figured, and this thread is just confirming my suspicions. I wish I would have listened to my gut sooner. I didn’t think things look right, but gave the farrier the benefit of the doubt.

                              I’m currently in NE Ohio, but will be moving down in Jupiter, FL Next week with the horses. If anyone knows someone, I would GREATLY appreciate it!
                              If you are on facebook you can join Hoof Care for Performance Horses. I started a post looking for someone.
                              Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
                              Quiet Miracle 2010 16.1h OTTB Bay Gelding
                              "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

                              Comment

                                Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by BoyleHeightsKid View Post
                                Here is a good article by Vance Glenn on what underrun heels are, how it happens etc. The foot in the article is very drastic and I hope your boy isn't this bad, but it help you get an understanding of what's going on.
                                https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/hea...un-heels-11569
                                Definitely not that bad, thankfully!! Thanks for sharing the article. Sounds like this can be fixed and “corrected” to grow out normally over some time! I understand this can take some time and I am willing to be patient, but worried even after what corrective shoeing was added he is still so sore when most horses are pretty sound early on after correction begins.

                                Comment

                                  Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by BoyleHeightsKid View Post

                                  If you are on facebook you can join Hoof Care for Performance Horses. I started a post looking for someone.
                                  Will add now!! Thanks for all the help

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by ThoroughbredLuver View Post

                                    Definitely not that bad, thankfully!! Thanks for sharing the article. Sounds like this can be fixed and “corrected” to grow out normally over some time! I understand this can take some time and I am willing to be patient, but worried even after what corrective shoeing was added he is still so sore when most horses are pretty sound early on after correction begins.
                                    Well... would have to see pictures, but I can understand if you're hesitant. But... I can usually predict how they're going to look. It seems to be an epidemic in TB's because of the way they are shod on the track.. for some reason, the long toe is seen as shoeing for speed

                                    What needs to happen is his toe needs to be brought back as much as possible at every single reset.. and set the shoe to put his breakover back where it should be. I would go no longer than 4-5 weeks on a horse like this. and the mistake I see many farriers make.. in an attempt to gain more heel height, they don't trim the heels. The heels are there and they are too long, only instead of growing down the run forward, fold under and crush. Then to keep the horse from pulling the shoes off (because the toes are too long delaying the foot from leaving the ground) they use a shoe that's too small and not giving the heels the support they need and it's a vicious never ending cycle that leaves you with a lame horse.

                                    Another important thing that cannot be over looked is the diet, so take a look at that as well. Since you are moving that might be a good time to do it. This is great article on feeding for healthy hooves and general health overall.
                                    https://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/FEE....%20Kellon.pdf
                                    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
                                    Quiet Miracle 2010 16.1h OTTB Bay Gelding
                                    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

                                    Comment

                                      Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by BoyleHeightsKid View Post

                                      Well... would have to see pictures, but I can understand if you're hesitant. But... I can usually predict how they're going to look. It seems to be an epidemic in TB's because of the way they are shod on the track.. for some reason, the long toe is seen as shoeing for speed

                                      What needs to happen is his toe needs to be brought back as much as possible at every single reset.. and set the shoe to put his breakover back where it should be. I would go no longer than 4-5 weeks on a horse like this. and the mistake I see many farriers make.. in an attempt to gain more heel height, they don't trim the heels. The heels are there and they are too long, only instead of growing down the run forward, fold under and crush. Then to keep the horse from pulling the shoes off (because the toes are too long delaying the foot from leaving the ground) they use a shoe that's too small and not giving the heels the support they need and it's a vicious never ending cycle that leaves you with a lame horse.

                                      Another important thing that cannot be over looked is the diet, so take a look at that as well. Since you are moving that might be a good time to do it. This is great article on feeding for healthy hooves and general health overall.
                                      https://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/FEE....%20Kellon.pdf
                                      Will send you a PM of the xrays. Would love your opinion since you seem to know a lot about this!

                                      Surprisingly, my mare had good heels post retirement from the track. Yet, my gelding that is a warmblood has the issues. Go figure lol

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        On the equipak- how long has he been using that? Some horses can’t handle that much pressure. Could that be contributing to lameness?
                                        is he in frog pads or using the equi pack to support frog?
                                        just grasping at ideas for you.

                                        Comment

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