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    Thanks for the effort

    Thanks for the effort
    Last edited by Fellbutbackup; Jul. 14, 2020, 11:34 AM.
    Originally posted by Equkelly;n10679061

    Jeez now I know why COTH has a reputation of being a bunch of overaged mean girls.

    #2
    Adding vegetable oils to horses grain has been used for a long time to add quick and easy calories and fat to a horse's diet. It can also help make grain more palatable.

    Comment


      #3
      Corn oil was very popular until the price got so high a while back. That is when I quit "oiling" the horse grain. I was not using much, 1/4 cup daily, per horse. But with 7-8 horses, it did add up in cost. Flax oil seems to be the current favorite oil additive. I never used vegtable oil.

      Comment


        #4
        Vegetable oil--soy oil--is high in omega 6. Omega 6 is "pro" inflammatory. Omega 3 is anti inflammatory.

        There is no research or data on how much omega 6 in the diet is actually harmful.

        Vegetable oil is a cheap source of concentrated calories that can be really useful for hard keeping horses.

        Comment

          Original Poster

          #5
          I need to reword. Why was vegetable oil considered beneficial in the past but considered not beneficial and out of date now?
          Originally posted by Equkelly;n10679061

          Jeez now I know why COTH has a reputation of being a bunch of overaged mean girls.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Fellbutbackup View Post
            I need to reword. Why was vegetable oil considered beneficial in the past but considered not beneficial and out of date now?
            Because of greater awareness/concern around omega 3/6 balance in the diet.

            But oils high in omega 3 (like flax) are costly and fragile. And there is zero research/evidence in what amount (if any) of omega 6 is *harmful*.

            Vegetable oil remains a very valid source of concentrated calories.

            Comment

              Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by Simkie View Post

              Because of greater awareness/concern around omega 3/6 balance in the diet.

              But oils high in omega 3 (like flax) are costly and fragile. And there is zero research/evidence in what amount (if any) of omega 6 is *harmful*.

              Vegetable oil remains a very valid source of concentrated calories.
              Thanks. But from the context I am not convinced that is it. Omega 3/6 balance being a highlight is fairly common knowledge at this point.

              I am hearing there is an actual reason against using oil. Meaning it should be avoided even in cases of weight building.
              Originally posted by Equkelly;n10679061

              Jeez now I know why COTH has a reputation of being a bunch of overaged mean girls.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Fellbutbackup View Post

                Thanks. But from the context I am not convinced that is it. Omega 3/6 balance being a highlight is fairly common knowledge at this point.

                I am hearing there is an actual reason against using oil. Meaning it should be avoided even in cases of weight building.
                - Some people who have OTTB hard keepers say that adding any additives like that makes them harder to keep weight on. They swear they can keep weight on OTTBS with just hay and a ration balancer.
                I don’t subscribe to that method. Tried it, have the sticker, didn’t work.
                - after a certain amount of oil being fed, the body won’t process it so it just gives them oily poop. Like more than 4 cups a day or so will do this.
                - Some people swear it makes their horses high strung. I also don’t subscribe to that belief, but maybe in certain cases it does.
                - Corn has been vilified in the horse world as of late, so corn based veggie oil may be avoided due to this
                - Omega 3/6 ratio, as mentioned before. If your horse doesn’t get any fresh grass and is fed a lot of grain, you might want to worry about this. If your horse grazes part of the day, you probably don’t.


                Comment


                  #9
                  Oil in what form? Just pouring cooking oil on the grain? Or as an extruded or pelleted feed?

                  Locally we have an extremely pallatable and effective high calorie "cool calorie" pellet feed that is primarily alfalfa meal and soy oil. I think every market and brand has something like it. I consider it a "modern" formulation . It will fatten up anorexic OTTB.

                  Anyhow, here on COTH many people recommend a bit of vegetable oil for hard keepers and some metabolic problems. It can be messy but it sounds like it's effective.

                  It is true that horses are not designed to eat pure oils. I prefer to feed my flax whole. But then I have an air fern easy keeper.

                  Anyhow I would ask the person you heard it from why they think it's outdated. If they are selling a feed or a supplement then that could be part of a sales pitch for a high fat pellet.

                  If it is just some random trainer or barn manager, no reason to necessarily take it seriously. Perhaps they don't want to feed wet oils in their program because they are indeed messy.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Corn and vegetable oil are just high in omega 6s versus flaxseed/ soybean/ or fish oils that are higher in omega 3s. Oils are still a dense source of calories which is good if you’re trying to get weight on a horse without starches and sugars. It’s just that now if you’re going to add oil, the research suggests it’s better to feed an oil higher in omega 3s so that’s why most people feed something like flaxseed oil over vegetable/ corn oil. FWIW I feed my mare healthy coat which is a combination of soy bean and flaxseed oil plus some other good stuff. I buy the 2.5 gallon jug for around 50 bucks w/ free shipping from farmvet. It’s messy so that’s kind of a pain but it’s worth it because she just looks so good on it.

                    Comment

                      Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
                      Oil in what form? Just pouring cooking oil on the grain? Or as an extruded or pelleted feed?

                      Locally we have an extremely pallatable and effective high calorie "cool calorie" pellet feed that is primarily alfalfa meal and soy oil. I think every market and brand has something like it. I consider it a "modern" formulation . It will fatten up anorexic OTTB.

                      Anyhow, here on COTH many people recommend a bit of vegetable oil for hard keepers and some metabolic problems. It can be messy but it sounds like it's effective.

                      It is true that horses are not designed to eat pure oils. I prefer to feed my flax whole. But then I have an air fern easy keeper.

                      Anyhow I would ask the person you heard it from why they think it's outdated. If they are selling a feed or a supplement then that could be part of a sales pitch for a high fat pellet.

                      If it is just some random trainer or barn manager, no reason to necessarily take it seriously. Perhaps they don't want to feed wet oils in their program because they are indeed messy.
                      My question was posed about cooking oil. But, you are right on the mark, as the cool calorie product came into question as an alternative. Though looking at the ingredients it looks to be just a powder form of vegetable oil. If anyone has more info about any other relevant difference, I am interested.

                      I will absolutely follow up, as the person is actually a very reliable source, but it is worth asking on this forum in case there is additional information I can research.
                      Originally posted by Equkelly;n10679061

                      Jeez now I know why COTH has a reputation of being a bunch of overaged mean girls.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Fellbutbackup View Post

                        My question was posed about cooking oil. But, you are right on the mark, as the cool calorie product came into question as an alternative. Though looking at the ingredients it looks to be just a powder form of vegetable oil. If anyone has more info about any other relevant difference, I am interested.

                        I will absolutely follow up, as the person is actually a very reliable source, but it is worth asking on this forum in case there is additional information I can research.
                        Well, what was the context as to why it was bad?

                        There are articles available on why Omega 3s are good for horses:
                        https://equimed.com/news/health/stud...0joint%20pain.
                        https://performancehorsenutrition.co...-6-fatty-acids

                        This one covers a lot about source, form, and benefits:


                        https://thehorse.com/168549/which-om...-for-my-horse/

                        All oils offer calories in the form of fat. Some oils are better for horses because they offer a better source of fat. Vegetable oil would be low on the list of choices for all the reasons - it's source, type of fat, and form, if fed as pure oil.

                        Also, as for "reliable sources" - not everyone reads up on equine research and advances. There are still vets that recommend rotational deworming to their clients even though it is an outdated recommendation. There are lots of reputable horse people that stand by "tried and true" practices for no good reason, only that it is "what they have always done" and if not obviously *bad*, they may have no reason to change.

                        I boarded at a barn where the BM insisted that "horses don't like to be outside" and rarely offered turnout, even though it was available. When she did, she didn't use flyspray/masks, no shelter, didn't offer hay or water, and often turned a horse out alone (while all others were in the barn), and then used it as "proof" that horses don't like to be outside. Yeah, well, no wonder. She was (and still is) a "reliable source" about many things, but I think her opinions are biased and self-serving. (e.g. it's work to turn horses out)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Fellbutbackup View Post

                          My question was posed about cooking oil. But, you are right on the mark, as the cool calorie product came into question as an alternative. Though looking at the ingredients it looks to be just a powder form of vegetable oil. If anyone has more info about any other relevant difference, I am interested.

                          I will absolutely follow up, as the person is actually a very reliable source, but it is worth asking on this forum in case there is additional information I can research.
                          As others have said, it really is the ratio of omegas. That is the only reason I have ever heard to stay away from corn oil and vegetable oil.

                          FTR, there’s no one single “cooking oil.” One can easily purchase vegetable oil, corn oil, canola oil, olive oil, and peanut oil from most any grocery store to cook with. We typically buy canola, not vegetable.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I still feed vegetable oil when I need “cheap” calories. *shrug*

                            The answer to your question really is the ratio of omega fatty acids.

                            Corn oil had a good run of popularity over vegetable oil, but corn oil’s omega 3:6 ratio is waaaaaay out of whack. Much worse than vegetable oil, which is almost always all soybean oil anymore. 20 years ago, I would have been reaching for the corn oil, but not now knowing what we know about excess omegas 6s.

                            When new research presents itself, our preferences and recommendations will likely shift again.
                            Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Fellbutbackup View Post

                              Thanks. But from the context I am not convinced that is it. Omega 3/6 balance being a highlight is fairly common knowledge at this point.

                              I am hearing there is an actual reason against using oil. Meaning it should be avoided even in cases of weight building.
                              Maybe you should share what you're hearing then.

                              There is no reason to avoid oil.

                              Yes, cool calories is just prilled vegetable oil. It's dry oil and no different. It's just $$$$$ and about half as dense. 1 cup oil = 2 cups prilled fat. It can be very difficult to get a horse to eat enough to make a difference, and quite costly to go that route.

                              Perhaps you're just hearing a barn managers preference because they find oil "messy." 🤷‍♀️

                              Comment

                                Original Poster

                                #16
                                Thanks for the effort.
                                Originally posted by Equkelly;n10679061

                                Jeez now I know why COTH has a reputation of being a bunch of overaged mean girls.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Fellbutbackup View Post

                                  Thanks. But from the context I am not convinced that is it. Omega 3/6 balance being a highlight is fairly common knowledge at this point.

                                  I am hearing there is an actual reason against using oil. Meaning it should be avoided even in cases of weight building.
                                  People hear and say a lot of things that simply aren't true, or are taken out of context and *might* be valid with some context. So, without more information on what you've actually been hearing, we can't address those details.

                                  Yes, we know a lot more about O3:6 now than years ago.

                                  But we also don't KNOW the correct ratio, and are only basing guesstimates on what's in grass

                                  Saying "omega 6 is pro-inflammatory" is not entirely true. It's not like you feed O6 and bam you've got inflammation. What IS true is that it supports the inflammatory process. Support is not the same as cause

                                  Do horses NEED more O6? No. That's not the same as saying adding some is bad.

                                  Do horses NEED more O3? If on lots of fresh grass, highly unlikely. If on too little, to no grass, then that would be of benefit

                                  Given the choices, I wouldn't choose an oil high in Omega 6. But if someone wants to add a few Tbsp corn oil for some shine, then if that amount of O6 causes problems, that horse has bigger issues.

                                  I'm also not going to choose cold-pressed flax oil - it's expensive and fragile. There are some less $$, but still $ oils that combine various oils including flax and fish, in palatable forms.

                                  In the end, oil has the highest calorie:volume ratio out there (neither good nor bad, needs context), and it's messy and not all horses will eat weight-gaining amounts or even any at all.

                                  If you'd like to provide more information on what you're hearing, then maybe our effort will be better.

                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment

                                    Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Current knowledge of omega 3/6 ratios isn’t a reason to not feed oil. That concern is easily addressed.

                                    It is something else. Thanks.
                                    Originally posted by Equkelly;n10679061

                                    Jeez now I know why COTH has a reputation of being a bunch of overaged mean girls.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Fellbutbackup View Post
                                      Current knowledge of omega 3/6 ratios isn’t a reason to not feed oil. That concern is easily addressed.

                                      It is something else. Thanks.
                                      This is a weird guessing game.

                                      If you know of a concern with oil, then SHARE IT, and we can all discuss it.

                                      If you don't know of a concern with oil, then what is this thread even about?

                                      Comment

                                        Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Simkie View Post

                                        This is a weird guessing game.

                                        If you know of a concern with oil, then SHARE IT, and we can all discuss it.

                                        If you don't know of a concern with oil, then what is this thread even about?
                                        Actually this is NOT a “guessing game.” I would appreciate not having to wade through “guesses.”

                                        Originally posted by Equkelly;n10679061

                                        Jeez now I know why COTH has a reputation of being a bunch of overaged mean girls.

                                        Comment

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