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Summit Joint Performance

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    Summit Joint Performance

    I know there's an older thread but I wanted to start a new one to see if there's new info out there. I've seen many friends who wouldn't normally fall for a MLM scheme now becoming reps. I've also seen pros such as Jon Holland advertising it. FEI riders. Is Summit really the real deal? What's the difference between being a rep and just being a customer? They talk about bringing horses out of retirement. Miracles in 24 hours. What worries me is I don't want something to mask the pain on a horribly lame horse and do further damage.Some people are saying their vets are good with it, others say their vets say run.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by enjoytheride; Apr. 22, 2020, 08:59 AM.
    http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

    #2
    The other thread has all the current info at the end and was on the first page here with discussion maybe last week. Ah, here it is, now it's on page two.

    https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f...int-supplement

    No, it's still just unregulated crap mixed up in someone's spare bedroom, with zero supporting research.

    Comment


      #3
      I am so sad we are getting horsey MLMs now. Really people? Just don’t.

      Comment


        #4
        Not sure what "new" information would outweigh the "old" information that can be found in that other thread (that Simkie linked to).

        Comment

          Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by horsepoor View Post
          Not sure what "new" information would outweigh the "old" information that can be found in that other thread (that Simkie linked to).

          I haven't seen anything on my personal FB feed at all about this. All of a sudden I've seen friends that I respect, pros,and FEI riders promoting it. As well as vets.

          Information gets lost in threads. I'm highly skeptical but what has changed recently that people are more comfortable promoting it, and that there are testimonials from vets who have FEI clients using it. Extra research? Heavier MLM?

          My old vet thought that compounded medications were all dangerous and would not prescribe them for any reason. My current vet has things like pentosan compound available.
          http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

          Comment


            #6
            This isn't compounded.

            Compounding pharmacies are still PHARMACIES. There's still some regulation. Compounded drugs still require a script. Drugs that are compounded have usually been shown, at one point or another, to be useful in actual research study.

            This is none of those things.

            As for why you're seeing more of it...better marketing...? MLM structure that makes the "downline" important??

            There's literally NO research. It is not FDA approved or registered. They're selling an injectible drug without a script illegally. And it's being mixed up in a spare bedroom, not a production facility, with what's likely bulk chondroitin powder from China. Gross.

            Comment

              Original Poster

              #7
              Can you show me where they say it's made in a bedroom and not a sterile facility? I'd like to verify it before I share it so people believe me
              http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post
                Can you show me where they say it's made in a bedroom and not a sterile facility? I'd like to verify it before I share it so people believe me
                It's in the other thread. Last few pages, IIRC.

                Comment

                  Original Poster

                  #9
                  I'm sorry but I can't find it. I'm also looking for this letter from the FDA siting them. I need something concrete so when I bring it to people they believe it.

                  I've used compounded Pentosan and had good results but I had to get it from a different vet as my vet then wouldn't approve something for off label use or anything compounded. I'd like to have facts as people seem to accept the MLM junk for the results and price and ability to not use a resistant vet.
                  http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Page seven.

                    https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f...8#post10213058

                    Seriously, just go read the other thread. It's only ten pages long and will not take that much time.

                    And again--this is not at all analogous to a compounded drug.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by enjoytheride
                      When I told someone it wasn't made in a lab they asked for proof. An annecdote from a BB member who talked to a guy at a party wasn't good enough for them.
                      Have you reached out to the company to see what they say about their manufacturing facilities?

                      Comment

                        Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by knic13 View Post

                        Have you reached out to the company to see what they say about their manufacturing facilities?
                        I did that and am waiting for a response from them. A lot of locals are going to do an online seminar and I'd like to have my ducks in a row. They are smart people. Facts not annecdotes.
                        http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                          #13
                          AppaloosaDressage was at Dorian Farmer's house. The guy who produces and sells Summit. That's hardly "some guy at a party."

                          Most of the people who use this aren't going to care that it's illegal, or not FDA approved, or not studied, or produced in a spare room. They see a way to make $$$. If they cared about what this crap actually is, or what it's been proven to do, they would have done the research about it and discovered Summit's claims are lies.

                          The Farmers have lied about this crap from the start. First they said it was a transplant media for corneal surgery. Then they said the DMF from 1979 was FDA approval. Now they say it's a supplement and need no FDA approval at all, which is very clearly untrue, as it's an injectible. They continuously claim that there are studies to support it's use, but refuse to provide them. Dorian Farmer, who mixes this up in his spare room, does not appear to have any background in chemistry (or even a college degree?), but does have an arrest record. Now they're distributing it in a MLM, which just adds to the absurdity of it all.

                          But no, people who don't care enough to do even a modicum of research before they inject something into their horse, or hawk it to make some bucks, probably will not care about any of this. Because they have their own agenda that doesn't include the truth.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I totally understand enjoytheride’s position. A lot of people I generally respect are hawking this stuff, and I find it troubling. While I will probably keep on keeping my mouth shut about it to them, it is unfortunate as lots of others in my horse communities are buying it hook, line, and sinker...people who can’t really afford to throw money away (and possibly harm their horses). I am definitely not going to engage in a discussion on the merits without something more than “I heard it on a BB” and that is not disparagement of any of you. It just lacks the same kind of rigor I am accusing them of lacking, if that makes sense, so it would undermine any good I might be doing.

                            Comment

                              Original Poster

                              #15
                              Thank you.

                              ​"​​​​​I heard it on a BB that someone went to a party with the maker" lacks the same research and attention to detail that I am accusing them of having. They are going to question my sources, and believe in their miracle. Horse people get duped into all sorts of latest and greatest. What concerns me is how many people I respect are injecting something into their horse that they lack all the facts about.

                              Getting angry at people who are asking for more info isn't helpful.
                              http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                                #16
                                You seem to be the only person here getting angry, enjoytheride.

                                Not sure why you're so hung up on the production method as the only problem here. Lack of FDA approval or oversight, lack of research, illegal distribution is all easily verifiable by simple research on the FDA website or from what Summit themselves have said.

                                But yeah, if your friends don't really care about all that, they're probably not going to care about much you can tell them.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  It's a bit ironic that folks pointing out the *absence* of documentation are being chided for not being able to document it.
                                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    The co-owner is a vet, which I have to believe is a big factor in people believing this must be legit.

                                    This isn't intended to be snarky, but unless someone understands the basic framework of FDA regulations it's very difficult to understand why what they're doing is shady.

                                    Unlike with humans, there is no such thing as an animal "supplement" in the eyes of the FDA. It's either an animal food or an animal drug.

                                    FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine Policies and Procedures Manual 1240.3605 "Regulating Animal Foods with Drug Claims" is the guidance FDA follows to determine if an animal food's intended use (what is claimed by the manufacturer) puts it into the drug category. https://www.fda.gov/media/69982/download

                                    It happens to state:
                                    Finally, it has been a long-standing agency policy that nutrients administered parenterally are regulated as drugs.
                                    So anything an animal doesn't eat but instead is injected into the animal is a drug.

                                    Summit is administered IM so FDA would consider it to be a drug.

                                    Legit animal drugs have an NADA/ANADA or an NDC code on their label. None of this exists for Summit.

                                    The IM route of administration also pretty much rules out them playing the game that other products do by classifying themselves as medical devices and stating they are a post-surgical lavage (ICHON) or physical wound dressing (CHONDROPROTEC). And at least those products have the decency to label themselves as Rx only, which Summit does not.

                                    If you look closely at their website, Summit never actually states what this product does. The closest that they get is saying it improves your animal's mobility, comfort, and performance. Those are marketing wiggle-words. You can bed a stall deeply and say it can improve your horse's mobility, comfort, and performance. They aren't claiming it helps with any actual disease states like arthritis. Because they can't. Those are drug claims, and they can't make drug claims, because they aren't approved as a drug.

                                    So they are most likely existing in this world where they should be regulated as a drug because of their route of administration, but if they aren't making overt drug claims FDA might not have bothered to go after them. Or they're really good at hiding their company name so finding an FDA Letter is difficult.

                                    Because there is no such thing as an animal supplement, I'm guessing they don't even follow the basic FDA Current Good Manufacturing Practices for dietary supplements that human vitamins/joint supplements do. Hence why people saying it's made in the owner's spare bedroom or garage isn't hard to believe.

                                    I don't think that anybody has ever gotten them to answer how the product is sterilized, and from what I can see it isn't even labeled as sterile, which is another red flag.

                                    So we've all looked for the usual "proof" that this is a legitimate product that is easily found for other products and have found none.

                                    It becomes the nuanced argument between the evidence that something is absent (we aren't finding the data supporting this product) and absence of evidence (there is no data supporting this product).

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Leather View Post
                                      The co-owner is a vet, which I have to believe is a big factor in people believing this must be legit.

                                      This isn't intended to be snarky, but unless someone understands the basic framework of FDA regulations it's very difficult to understand why what they're doing is shady.

                                      Unlike with humans, there is no such thing as an animal "supplement" in the eyes of the FDA. It's either an animal food or an animal drug.

                                      FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine Policies and Procedures Manual 1240.3605 "Regulating Animal Foods with Drug Claims" is the guidance FDA follows to determine if an animal food's intended use (what is claimed by the manufacturer) puts it into the drug category. https://www.fda.gov/media/69982/download

                                      It happens to state:


                                      So anything an animal doesn't eat but instead is injected into the animal is a drug.

                                      Summit is administered IM so FDA would consider it to be a drug.

                                      Legit animal drugs have an NADA/ANADA or an NDC code on their label. None of this exists for Summit.

                                      The IM route of administration also pretty much rules out them playing the game that other products do by classifying themselves as medical devices and stating they are a post-surgical lavage (ICHON) or physical wound dressing (CHONDROPROTEC). And at least those products have the decency to label themselves as Rx only, which Summit does not.

                                      If you look closely at their website, Summit never actually states what this product does. The closest that they get is saying it improves your animal's mobility, comfort, and performance. Those are marketing wiggle-words. You can bed a stall deeply and say it can improve your horse's mobility, comfort, and performance. They aren't claiming it helps with any actual disease states like arthritis. Because they can't. Those are drug claims, and they can't make drug claims, because they aren't approved as a drug.

                                      So they are most likely existing in this world where they should be regulated as a drug because of their route of administration, but if they aren't making overt drug claims FDA might not have bothered to go after them. Or they're really good at hiding their company name so finding an FDA Letter is difficult.

                                      Because there is no such thing as an animal supplement, I'm guessing they don't even follow the basic FDA Current Good Manufacturing Practices for dietary supplements that human vitamins/joint supplements do. Hence why people saying it's made in the owner's spare bedroom or garage isn't hard to believe.

                                      I don't think that anybody has ever gotten them to answer how the product is sterilized, and from what I can see it isn't even labeled as sterile, which is another red flag.

                                      So we've all looked for the usual "proof" that this is a legitimate product that is easily found for other products and have found none.

                                      It becomes the nuanced argument between the evidence that something is absent (we aren't finding the data supporting this product) and absence of evidence (there is no data supporting this product).
                                      Really good post. Thank you.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        It is impossible for those adamantly against it to just let others discuss, isn't it? SMH
                                        20% off code for Hay Chix hay nets--http://682haychix.refr.cc/chelseaboda

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