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*small update* New farrier and now a lame horse, what to do now?

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  • #41
    So vet came out for X-rays today. Things are much clearer now. And I don't think we can "blame the new farrier." So I'll keep working with him.

    He has a grade 1 club on the sore foot. His angles were definitely not helping. He needs less toe and more heel (which is what that foot wants to do) so basically we can't try to make it a normal hoof. Hopefully once we get things straightened out, he'll be much more comfortable.



    ​​​​​​

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    • #42
      Never a good idea to drastically change things. Better to work with what they are if you can. Just like us!

      Comment


      • #43
        candyappy yep! So we will see if a different approach helps this

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Lunabear1988 View Post
          candyappy yep! So we will see if a different approach helps this
          I am sure it will. Good luck!!

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          • #45
            I have a horse with a diagnosed “less than Grade 1” club hoof that has never been lame a day of his 26 years, even with bad trimming. This horse has been trail ridden on some rough trails through the years. Barefoot unless I wasn’t sure of the terrain.

            The hoof does not need corrected, except to let it tell you what it needs. ​​​​​​. The toes wear themselves off on a clubby hoof. The heels grow at warp speed and need the most trimming.

            My horse is trimmed every five weeks because the other, foundered, Horse has to be trimmed that frequent. Other wise the club hoof horse could go 6 weeks or a little more. His heels need trimmed down well ahead of his toes.

            IMO, I would not have the last farrier you used return. If I remember correctly, this horse wasn’t lame until this last farrier trimmed him? I would worry about anyone who can sore a club hoof horse up that fast.

            Also, FWIW, my clubby fella was also diagnosed with the opposite leg muscle being 1/2” (Half inch) longer than the muscle in the club hoof leg. That happened over the years. Even though he was in his early 20’s when that diagnosis was arrived at, he still has to think about picking the “longer” leg up.

            A Grade One club hoof should not be that serious of a deal to trim, yet your horse is now lame, therefore I’d get a different farrier

            Best wishes

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            • #46
              walkinthewalk thanks for perspective! This horse is a TB and shod in the front. I am not sure I could blame this farrier yet. When I first looked at this horse I thought he was the tinest bit off up front. Amazing personality and in obvious need of TLC.. His feet were far overdue and the lower hoof was drastically different than the other (like more than needed and I say that after now having x-rays.) When I vetted him (different vet than I am using now) he did not see any clubby foot. I thought I did, but I'm not a vet. He also didn't see any lameness.

              When he was in training I got him on a 6 week schedule. I do think that farrier made drastic changes and definitely was trimming it like a normal foot.

              Now this new guy stepped in and timing coincided with a lot of ice and snow.. I'm sure that's not helping.

              My point is, in hindsight I now think he did have some low grade soreness up front that has been brewing all along. I'll definitely be watching the new farrier closely though and if things don't seem right, I have no problem switching.

              .
              .

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              • #47
                So if anyone is that blame, it might be me! I didn't instruct any of the farriers ( I let them do their job) but I should have pushed for x-rays and trusted my first instinct in the first place. I do love the horse and hope we can get him 100%. My regular vet isn't too concerned yet and thinks we can get him in a better spot.

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                • #48
                  Please update when you can

                  Also, club hooves have a propensity for thrush, regardless of how well we care for the hooves. My current farrier is a therapeutic farrier because that is what my foundered horse needs.

                  She also gets the physics of club hooves. My clubby fella has not had thrush in that or any other hoof in the three years she has been trimming for me. She also has managed to get him balanced to where he no longer has vertical toe cracks on the club hoof or the diagonal rear.

                  I spend so much time tending to the foundered horse (who also has other issues), that there have been times I’ve only picked this fella’s hooves once or twice between five week farrier visits. His hooves self clean and there is never any sign of thrush.

                  If there is one thing I have learned about farriers over my lifetime, it is how good many of them are NOT, when they have to deal with special needs hooves, and that includes me, lollol. I can’t shoe but I have trimmed since I was a kid. I am great on normal hooves with some minor issues. Serious founder and club hooves aren’t two of them, lol

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Lunabear1988 View Post

                    He needs less toe and more heel (which is what that foot wants to do) ​​​​​​
                    That's not really accurate.

                    When the heels are trimmed too low, excess pressure is put on the toe. Throughout the shoeing cycle the toe will start to dish which shortens the toe and reduces pressure on the toe but the toe is now short and probably sore.

                    What you do want is to allow the toe to grow out once the excess pressure is removed. The toe length on both feet will actually grow to be the same length even though the feet are different angles.

                    I added a couple of pics to show a high/low pretty much grown out on the upright foot and both feet ended up being the same length at the toes after 3 or so shoeings.




                    Eric Russell CJF

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Lunabear1988 View Post
                      So if anyone is that blame, it might be me! I didn't instruct any of the farriers ( I let them do their job) but I should have pushed for x-rays and trusted my first instinct in the first place. I do love the horse and hope we can get him 100%. My regular vet isn't too concerned yet and thinks we can get him in a better spot.
                      x-rays aren't all that helpful to a Farrier working on an upright foot with or without a hyperflexed dipj. Most people, including vets and farriers, think you can look at an x-ray and say trim here. It doesn't work that way.
                      Eric Russell CJF

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                      • #51
                        eruss that's my extremely watered down version. I didn't type everything the vet told us (she left the farrier a full page of stuff) but she talk about keeping the toe happy. Right now he's more ouchy torwads his heel, not sore yet at the toe that we are seeing.

                        My vet is luckily well versed in feet issues, this whole thing might have been prevented if she had been involved the whole time. She's married to a retired farrier so has a special interest in feet.

                        ​​​​​​I do have a question, how else can you tell how to trim a horse if not with x-rays, looking at angles in and outside foot and watching the horses movement, how they want to wear the hoof and all that? What else is there?

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Lunabear1988 View Post
                          eruss Right now he's more ouchy torwads his heel, not sore yet at the toe that we are seeing.
                          That'll happen especially the lateral heel quarter.

                          ​​​​​​I do have a question, how else can you tell how to trim a horse if not with x-rays, looking at angles in and outside foot and watching the horses movement, how they want to wear the hoof and all that? What else is there?
                          Exfoliating the sole along the sole / white line junction to find the sole plane is the best way I've found.

                          Watching a horse walk can help.

                          X-rays and angles are not any help in determining how to trim upright feet.



                          Eric Russell CJF

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Lunabear1988 View Post
                            eruss that's my extremely watered down version. I didn't type everything the vet told us (she left the farrier a full page of stuff) but she talk about keeping the toe happy. Right now he's more ouchy torwads his heel, not sore yet at the toe that we are seeing.

                            My vet is luckily well versed in feet issues, this whole thing might have been prevented if she had been involved the whole time. She's married to a retired farrier so has a special interest in feet.

                            ​​​​​​I do have a question, how else can you tell how to trim a horse if not with x-rays, looking at angles in and outside foot and watching the horses movement, how they want to wear the hoof and all that? What else is there?
                            Short version. You trim the horse the way it’s skeletal angles dictate, you differentiate between what is the result of injury or poor farrier work and understand there really is no such thing as “ corrective” shoeing. Most good farriers and trimmers don’t even use that term any more, really don’t see it much except on here. You work with the way the horse is built and what that foot wants to be. IME and IMO.

                            OP and other newer folk on here, shoeing threads always get interesting as you always get varying opinions. Harkens back to the Great Shoeing Wars some years back, before FB. Somebody would ask a question, post a picture or describe a situation, they’d get 6 replies with 8 different opinions, 10 pages of back and forth, PM fights would ensure, Mods would get involved in PMs due to language and threats, at least one poster was physically stalked and a couple were banned. One tried to comeback at least twice with a new name and IP addy but conduct was the same and banned again and maybe again after that.

                            Just read all of them and decide what works for you best, maybe something in another that doesn’t apply now with this horse might with another down the road. Also keep in mind we don’t know you or the horse and form the opinion based on one sided, second, even third hand info and there’s a limit to the usefulness of internet advice versus professional, hands on guidance. And never say or take ‘never” or “always” as gospel outside of a very few safety and basic survival issues.

                            Look forward to continuing updates. Hope you can hop back on soon.



                            When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                            The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              walkinthewalk thankfully my guy isn't contracted on his heels, no thrush yet but I'll watch out for it.

                              This will be a new journey for me and I'm sure I'll learn a lot more about hoof balance in the next few years

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                findeight good advice! My vet spent a lot of time just looking at his feet and watching him move. The quickest part of the exam was the x-rays! What she said before the x-rays and after seeing them was very similar. He definitely isn't lined up right now according to xrays, his movement and just honestly how his foot looks.

                                I definitely will keep various advice in mind but as you were saying, I have to keep it in perspective and work with who's seeing the horse in person.

                                He's the sweetest, hardest working horse ever so I'm hoping it's something we can amend quickly.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by findeight View Post

                                  Short version. You trim the horse the way it’s skeletal angles dictate, you differentiate between what is the result of injury or poor farrier work and understand there really is no such thing as “ corrective” shoeing. Most good farriers and trimmers don’t even use that term any more, really don’t see it much except on here.
                                  "Club" foot is going the way of "corrective" shoeing. It's being replaced with functional limb length disparity and unresolved flexoral deformity.

                                  Here's a link, not sure if it works or not.

                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

                                  Eric Russell CJF

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Lunabear1988 View Post

                                    My point is, in hindsight I now think he did have some low grade soreness up front that has been brewing all along. I'll definitely be watching the new farrier closely though and if things don't seem right, I have no problem switching.

                                    .
                                    .
                                    It's sometimes hard to tell if a club footed horse is off or if he's just not quite even because of the club. I don't think my club footed horse is sore, but he sometimes looks a little off because his body is so asymmetrical (the club is part of a "functionally shorter" diagonal).

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Link in post #56 above works, unlike the quote function at the moment. That's interesting, it’s a lecture by a vet, I think? Don’t have time to watch it past the first 5 min but thanks very much for posting that, worth the time to sit through it. I’ll do it later this evening.
                                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        This horse was (according to OP) 2-3/5 lame, which is not insignificant. And he was positive to hoof testers. So yes, a club foot does mean that leg is functionally shorter. But with a fairly low grade club that shouldn’t be super obvious and can be supported with correct work (once he is no longer sore and angles are corrected to minimize soft tissue injury) and trimming the foot appropriately.

                                        eruss I agree with...it’s not less toe more heel, it’s just more upright than the other foot which has the illusion of more heel (the heel appears taller) which then makes the toe look comparatively short. But really the toes should be the same length after a trim; they are just on a different angle.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by eruss View Post
                                          What you do want is to allow the toe to grow out once the excess pressure is removed. The toe length on both feet will actually grow to be the same length even though the feet are different angles.
                                          This has been my experience. The toe length on the club and the down hoof stay about the same whether I trim him using the sole as a guide, or he trims them himself. The heels on the club have always been higher and narrower, and I've never been able to trim them to the widest part of the frog. The bottom of the club has a deeper cup, but the frog remains narrow compared to the down hoof.

                                          If he develops any hoof wall separation it'll be in the lateral wall of the club, which makes sense because the club is set underneath his body more so the lateral wall is likely loaded more.






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