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Negative palmar angle

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  • huntseat3
    replied
    Originally posted by JB View Post
    To me, it looks like things improved a bit from 2016 to 2017, but then regressed in terms of the back of the foot sinking more, through 2018 and to 2020. Sole depth and shoe placement are best in 2020, but alignment doesn't look to have improved at all.

    Thanks eruss for your explanations.
    These were my thoughts. 2017 looked best to me

    Leave a comment:


  • Equestrianette
    replied
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Name:	
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ID:	10576705 When I bought my horse in August 2018 he had a negative 5 degree palmar angle on the right front. Vet prescribed to bring the toe back, bar shoe, 2 degree wedge with repeat xrays every 6 months. At 1 year in we graduated to a regular shoe but kept the wedge and started to gently float the heel. Currently the heel is off the ground and was a +1 degree at the last X-ray.
    Let me see if I can get some pics up. I also feed Nutrimix plus for a hoof supplement.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    To me, it looks like things improved a bit from 2016 to 2017, but then regressed in terms of the back of the foot sinking more, through 2018 and to 2020. Sole depth and shoe placement are best in 2020, but alignment doesn't look to have improved at all.

    Thanks eruss for your explanations.

    Leave a comment:


  • huntseat3
    replied
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  • huntseat3
    replied
    When I bought this horse in 2011 he was wearing an aluminum rocker toed shoe and was not lame. My farrier at the time didn’t like the shoe (he called them Natural Balance) because he said they indicated that something was wrong with the horses feet. I believe farrier switched him to a plain steel shoe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Obsidian Fire
    replied
    To my eye it appears you had better alignment in the 2016 pic than you do now.

    Leave a comment:


  • huntseat3
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  • Obsidian Fire
    replied
    IPEsq -- I don't recall what we started with, but at last films we had put on an addt'l 5 mm. That was back in June.

    No, the shoe was not set back. Her actual toe was rockered - I watched the farrier do it. Don't ask me to explain it, I'll try to get pics next time he's out, but that's what he did.
    This mare also has some loose stifle issues, and breaking her over quicker behind has helped with that.

    I am in agreement with you about the wedges. If this had been a more "dire" situation we may have started there. As it was, farrier asked me if I was willing to put in the time it would take to go the flip-flop route. I was, we did, here we are today - 14 mos later.



    Leave a comment:


  • IPEsq
    replied
    Originally posted by Obsidian Fire View Post
    eruss I get what you are saying but in this case what we did worked. The flip flops and the packing material... how do I explain this? At any rate it took the pressure off the heels and allowed them to grow down rather than crush under. We also got increased sole depth from this which helped.

    Yes her toe is rockered , not the shoe.
    How much sole did you have to begin with? I think it’s hard to rock the toe via the trim unless you’ve got some excess sole to work with. Unless you just mean the shoe was set back.

    OP’s horse has a bit more heel support and a little more sole depth from a year ago but the angle has not improved, and that has got to be putting some strain on the soft tissues.

    I’m not a huge fan of wedges for horses with low/crushed heels but at some point you just have to get the bones aligned. I wonder if a wedge shoe with pour in material instead of the bar shoe would be helpful. And I might escalate the cycle to 4 or 5 weeks to try to get ahead of that toe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Obsidian Fire
    replied
    Originally posted by eruss View Post

    Floating the toe is an interesting idea! Any chance you can get some pics and post them?
    It would not be til next month as she just had her feet done, but I’ll see what I can do.

    Leave a comment:


  • eruss
    replied
    Originally posted by Obsidian Fire View Post
    eruss
    Yes her toe is rockered , not the shoe.
    Floating the toe is an interesting idea! Any chance you can get some pics and post them?

    Leave a comment:


  • Obsidian Fire
    replied
    eruss I get what you are saying but in this case what we did worked. The flip flops and the packing material... how do I explain this? At any rate it took the pressure off the heels and allowed them to grow down rather than crush under. We also got increased sole depth from this which helped.

    Yes her toe is rockered , not the shoe.

    Leave a comment:


  • eruss
    replied
    Originally posted by Obsidian Fire View Post
    eruss — yes, she was negative plantar angle as per films, and it was visible to the eye as she was bullnosed.
    I am not sure how to answer you; farrier rockers the toe, she is shod flat except the heels are floated somewhat by his flattening out the end of the shoe. So she is weight bearing all around except a slight relief in the heel. Does that make sense?
    We tried a couple cycles of plain flat shoes to see if she would hold the heels but we were both a bit skeptical she was staying correct so that’s when we modified the shoe to see if that would work, rather than putting her back in flip flops.
    ok, you said the foot was rockered but not the shoe. Was just checking.

    A large majority of the time it's because the horse is standing underneath himself behind. Floating the heels doesn't help because you still have the weight coming down on it.

    Without seeing the horse, if the foot is bullnosed set the shoe about a 1/2 inch forward of the toe, add a rim pad or par and soft pour or impression material.

    Leave a comment:


  • Obsidian Fire
    replied
    eruss — yes, she was negative plantar angle as per films, and it was visible to the eye as she was bullnosed.
    I am not sure how to answer you; farrier rockers the toe, she is shod flat except the heels are floated somewhat by his flattening out the end of the shoe. So she is weight bearing all around except a slight relief in the heel. Does that make sense?
    We tried a couple cycles of plain flat shoes to see if she would hold the heels but we were both a bit skeptical she was staying correct so that’s when we modified the shoe to see if that would work, rather than putting her back in flip flops.

    Leave a comment:


  • eruss
    replied
    Originally posted by Obsidian Fire View Post

    My mare is NPA in the hind. She is on a 4-week cycle, and has been for over a year. She spent the first year in a shoe called "flip flops". We took films every 6 mos to see where we were. Now, she's in full steel shoes BUT -- the farrier flattens the ends and also uses leather pads (not wedges). So the heels are still a bit floated, the sole is supported with the packing inside the pad, and so far this is working. Her heels are not reverting back to the way they were. The other thing my farrier has done is rocker her toe. Yes, her hind feet. And not the shoe, the hoof itself. It's working.
    First, hopefully your mare was NPA and currently not NPA!

    Palmer and Plantar angles are completely different!

    So the toe is actually floated (non weight bearing) and the shoe is a flat shoe at the toe? Was the toe non weight bearing while the flip flop was on?

    And now the heel is being floated and the toe is floated at the same time?











    Leave a comment:


  • eruss
    replied
    Originally posted by Arlomine View Post
    what im puzzled about is the length of the toe, It looks almost longer relative to the tip of the coffin bone in number two than number one.
    I would need someon to explain to me why delaying the break over on this way is a positive thing for this horse.
    The wall should be parallel to p3. With more sole depth the distance from coa to the tip of the toe is further. You also have to consider the height gained. The added height should zero out the added anterior length.





    Leave a comment:


  • eruss
    replied
    Originally posted by huntseat3 View Post
    So what should I do next?
    Ideally I'd like to put a shoe like this on to raise the angle to get some of the pressure off the back of the foot. Add a thick leather pad and soft pour to prevent excess movement at the heels and protect the sole from exfoliating.






    In your case, since you're already going the barshoe route, barshoe with 3 degree wedge pad and sole support. And very little trimming at the next shoeing cycle.


    Leave a comment:


  • eruss
    replied
    [QUOTE]
    Originally posted by JB View Post
    Personally,I don't think the cannon is angle enough to make a difference, and I don't know how any amount of angling would make P2 and P3 look like they do. Do you have an example that shows otherwise?
    No examples but if you're worried about a dorsiflexed dipj then I rather the cannon be straight up and down.


    A year into this and the foot isn't looking any different, and you're neither pleased nor concerned? Sure, sole depth is better, but the toe wall is no longer smooth, and the toe is longer though to be fair maybe it's the end of a cycle.

    I'm honestly trying to figure out what circumstances you have personally worked on such that no apparent progress on a foot like this has been made in a year. I am not saying these are easy to fix. I've seen some that were, and have seen 2 that did take a couple years to truly resolve, but at the year mark there was still obvious headway.
    I've had some where the foot came around in a shoeing or two. I've had ones like this one where very little improvement was ever shown. Actually did one just like this a few days ago. Very little progress but I got him sound.

    One thing that gets overlooked is what the horse owner wants, especially when they've been dealing with lameness issues. I can't think of a time where I shod a horse with lameness issues and made him sound where the horse owner had any interest in my grand scheme to get the horse's feet to where I thought was ideal. Once the horse is sound they don't want to make any changes!

    Is it that you feel the increased sole depth had to come first and *now* the back of the foot will/might start to stand up?
    I doubt the back of this foot is ever going to stand up but yeah get some sole on him and go from there....





    Leave a comment:


  • kande04
    replied
    Originally posted by Abbie.S View Post

    See, I guess that's the thing re: the bolded. I don't think that's the mark of a skilled farrier. Constantly taking from the sole is, to me, a cardinal sin of trimming. It looks nicer, but you're generally not benefiting the horse in any functional way and usually progressing it towards a weaker foot.
    I thought of that when I was writing it, but what I meant is that he's skilled at fitting a shoe to a level hoof. IOW, the job comes out the way he intends it to. I don't agree with some of the decisions he makes as far as how he trims the hoof and where he sets the shoe, but he shoes to keep the majority of his customers happy, and apparently they're happy, because he has plenty of work.

    I think the length of the toe is a minor problem compared to the lack of development of the bottom and back of the hoof.

    If I had the hoof and rads in front of me I might decide to be very conservative about taking anything off, including anything at the toe, for fear that the entire hoof might collapse. For all we know the walls may already be full of nail holes, or crumbling, or who knows what? The horse may not be able to spare any hoof, so the only sensible way to get the toe back would be to take a little at a time, and that can't be done with a shoe nailed on to a hoof that may already be falling apart.
    Last edited by kande04; Feb. 8, 2020, 03:30 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arlomine
    replied
    I do see what I believe is improvement the at the rear of the foot, and it looks like the horse may be in a whole size larger shoe now.
    In rad 1, the back of the hoof is hanging over the heel of the shoe to an alarming degree, and the first toe nails are way out in front of the tip of the coffin bone. The whole shoe looks way too far forward to me....
    in the second rad, the heel has more support, in terms of the shoe being set back more...

    what im puzzled about is the length of the toe, It looks almost longer relative to the tip of the coffin bone in number two than number one.
    I would need someon to explain to me why delaying the break over on this way is a positive thing for this horse.

    Leave a comment:

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