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Negative palmar angle

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  • #21
    Shoe placement looks good with current and past Farrier. Vertical depth at the toe is getting to the point where the foot will be sore.

    You're dealing with a weight bearing issue and there's no quick fix for this.

    IME, the most effective thing to do is add a very thick rim pad and add equipak and fill till it's level with the shoe. The idea is there is too much heel movement, the thick rim pad will allow enough equipak at the back of the foot for it to stick to the foot and prevent too much movement. It usually takes a couple shoeings to see any improvement.

    Eric Russell CJF

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by eruss View Post
      Shoe placement looks good with current and past Farrier. Vertical depth at the toe is getting to the point where the foot will be sore.

      You're dealing with a weight bearing issue and there's no quick fix for this.

      IME, the most effective thing to do is add a very thick rim pad and add equipak and fill till it's level with the shoe. The idea is there is too much heel movement, the thick rim pad will allow enough equipak at the back of the foot for it to stick to the foot and prevent too much movement. It usually takes a couple shoeings to see any improvement.
      eruss I always appreciate it when you chime in.

      Can you explain how this NPD might have been caused?

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by S1969 View Post



        Can you explain how this NPD might have been caused?

        I think to start you would obviously need a naturally lower angle hoof.

        Then growth exceeding wear which increases pressure in the back of the foot and the soft tissues begin to compress and the back of the foot begins to have excess movement. If the foot has a shoe on, the excess heel movement will actually trim the heels down throughout the shoeing.
        Eric Russell CJF

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by huntseat3 View Post
          This radiograph was taken January 2020, 4 weeks into the shoeing.
          I'd suggest having the Farrier put hoof testers to the foot before trimming the foot. And again post trim. 4 weeks into the shoeing and the sole depth is still looking a bit thin.

          If you're going to go the barshoe pad route, You're most likely going to need more of a wedge pad and sole packing to try to maintain a positive angle throughout the shoeing cycle.





          Eric Russell CJF

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Abbie.S View Post
            I trim my own horses, so I know what to look for and how to get a balanced foot and I just don't see how or why that toe is allowed to get that long.
            I have some idea, because even though I usually trim and shoe my own I had a farrier come and shoe a new horse last winter. This farrier is skilled, he's been shoeing for a long time, and he gets the shoes on and makes the hoof look nice. But, he only trims from the bottom and doesn't set the shoe back when the hoof starts to run out, so then he ends up cutting into the sole at the toe to try to shorten the run-out toe. And of course, that just thins the sole at the toe so it just drops and runs out faster.

            It's not a huge deal for my horse because he only wears shoes in the winter so he's back out of the shoes before his hoof gets too weak.

            This winter I decided to shoe him myself to see if sparing the sole and setting the shoes back would leave him with a better hoof when the shoes were pulled at the end of the second shoeing cycle. They're three weeks out from the last reset and his hooves look pretty good so far, so I'll soon be able to tell how well this strategy works.
            Last edited by kande04; Feb. 7, 2020, 08:12 AM.

            Comment


            • #26
              The responses in this thread are at least entertaining!

              There's people saying the toes are too long when there's an x-ray in the first post proving otherwise.

              People talking about balance when there's no foot to trim.

              People suggesting firing the Farrier and then the OP shows an x-ray of what he started with.

              Eric Russell CJF

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                So what should I do next?

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by eruss View Post
                  The responses in this thread are at least entertaining!

                  There's people saying the toes are too long when there's an x-ray in the first post proving otherwise.

                  People talking about balance when there's no foot to trim.

                  People suggesting firing the Farrier and then the OP shows an x-ray of what he started with.

                  IMO, the rad shows considerable extra toe, but I had the same reaction to the rest of it.

                  I'm not sure what I'd try first other than getting the shoes off so the back of the hoof can start developing, but that would depend on what the horse's living conditions are like. I'd be more than a little worried that he's been shod for at least a year and the hoof still hasn't developed any heel or sole, and that closing the hoof up even more would just weaken it further.

                  I'll be interested to hear what the vet recommends.
                  Last edited by kande04; Feb. 7, 2020, 08:15 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by kande04 View Post

                    I have some idea, because even though I usually trim and shoe my own I had a farrier come and shoe a new horse last winter. This farrier is skilled, he's been shoeing for a long time, and he gets the shoes on and makes the hoof look nice. But, he only trims from the bottom and doesn't set the shoe back when the hoof starts to run out, so then he ends up cutting into the sole at the toe to try to shorten the run-out toe. And of course, that just thins the sole at the toe so it just drops and runs out faster.
                    See, I guess that's the thing re: the bolded. I don't think that's the mark of a skilled farrier. Constantly taking from the sole is, to me, a cardinal sin of trimming. It looks nicer, but you're generally not benefiting the horse in any functional way and usually progressing it towards a weaker foot.

                    eruss, instead of poking fun at us, would you mind explaining why you don't think this horse has excess toe? I am, full disclosure, not always confident talking about hoof balance in technical terms. When I trim, I tend to trim visually - I know what I am looking for in terms of landmarks, I can visualize the changes that need to happen to create better future balance, etc. This works for my herd and those horses I take in that have decent enough feet that just need to be set up to self-maintain. But I'm no expert for more difficult cases. When I look at those rads, I see a horse well out of anterior-posterior balance, essentially duckfooted and I see what looks like a toe that is being allowed to flare out. Can you speak more to what you're seeing?
                    Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not. Remember that what you have now was once among the many things that you only hoped for.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by eruss View Post
                      People talking about balance when there's no foot to trim.
                      Trimming isn't the only way to start balancing the foot, while waiting for the foot to be balanced

                      People suggesting firing the Farrier and then the OP shows an x-ray of what he started with.
                      So, just so I understand, you're ok with a farrier who has the foot looking like this - not hugely different from when he started, after he's been working on it for a year? I'm just trying to understand.
                      Click image for larger version  Name:	31B40AFD-0DFE-458F-8026-76B41850E794.jpeg Views:	1 Size:	8.6 KB ID:	10571274



                      To make it easier for everyone, here's the foot the current farrier started with. At least there's more sole depth now (above), so there's that.
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Abbie.S View Post
                        eruss, When I look at those rads, I see a horse well out of anterior-posterior balance, essentially duckfooted and I see what looks like a toe that is being allowed to flare out. Can you speak more to what you're seeing?
                        There is some distortion at the toe around the level of the distal end p3. Other than that the angle is low and p3 and the hoof capsule rotated around the center of articulation.

                        The x-ray of the previous Farrier, the cannon bone is not vertical. Maybe the horse moved or was standing under himself but it's not vertical which makes it look worse than it is. Maybe the x-ray of the current farrier the cannon bone is vertical and maybe it's not.

                        Eric Russell CJF

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by JB View Post
                          Trimming isn't the only way to start balancing the foot, while waiting for the foot to be balanced
                          This Farrier has a pad and barshoe on. When the horse gets off the x-ray block and into soft footing, things should be more "balanced".


                          So, just so I understand, you're ok with a farrier who has the foot looking like this - not hugely different from when he started, after he's been working on it for a year? I'm just trying to understand.
                          I'm indifferent! When I get a new horse to shoe and the feet are in rough shape, I don't bash the previous Farrier. I say this is where the feet are and figure out how to get them better. That's how I feel about this. The Vet and Farrier are trying to figure it out. The OP is on here looking for suggestions.












                          Eric Russell CJF

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by eruss View Post
                            The x-ray of the previous Farrier, the cannon bone is not vertical. Maybe the horse moved or was standing under himself but it's not vertical which makes it look worse than it is. Maybe the x-ray of the current farrier the cannon bone is vertical and maybe it's not.
                            Personally,I don't think the cannon is angle enough to make a difference, and I don't know how any amount of angling would make P2 and P3 look like they do. Do you have an example that shows otherwise?

                            Originally posted by eruss View Post
                            I'm indifferent! When I get a new horse to shoe and the feet are in rough shape, I don't bash the previous Farrier. I say this is where the feet are and figure out how to get them better. That's how I feel about this. The Vet and Farrier are trying to figure it out. The OP is on here looking for suggestions.
                            A year into this and the foot isn't looking any different, and you're neither pleased nor concerned? Sure, sole depth is better, but the toe wall is no longer smooth, and the toe is longer though to be fair maybe it's the end of a cycle.

                            I'm honestly trying to figure out what circumstances you have personally worked on such that no apparent progress on a foot like this has been made in a year. I am not saying these are easy to fix. I've seen some that were, and have seen 2 that did take a couple years to truly resolve, but at the year mark there was still obvious headway.

                            Is it that you feel the increased sole depth had to come first and *now* the back of the foot will/might start to stand up?

                            I am *not* bashing the farrier. It just seems to me he doesn't have the skills to make progress on this foot.

                            ______________________________
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I do see what I believe is improvement the at the rear of the foot, and it looks like the horse may be in a whole size larger shoe now.
                              In rad 1, the back of the hoof is hanging over the heel of the shoe to an alarming degree, and the first toe nails are way out in front of the tip of the coffin bone. The whole shoe looks way too far forward to me....
                              in the second rad, the heel has more support, in terms of the shoe being set back more...

                              what im puzzled about is the length of the toe, It looks almost longer relative to the tip of the coffin bone in number two than number one.
                              I would need someon to explain to me why delaying the break over on this way is a positive thing for this horse.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Abbie.S View Post

                                See, I guess that's the thing re: the bolded. I don't think that's the mark of a skilled farrier. Constantly taking from the sole is, to me, a cardinal sin of trimming. It looks nicer, but you're generally not benefiting the horse in any functional way and usually progressing it towards a weaker foot.
                                I thought of that when I was writing it, but what I meant is that he's skilled at fitting a shoe to a level hoof. IOW, the job comes out the way he intends it to. I don't agree with some of the decisions he makes as far as how he trims the hoof and where he sets the shoe, but he shoes to keep the majority of his customers happy, and apparently they're happy, because he has plenty of work.

                                I think the length of the toe is a minor problem compared to the lack of development of the bottom and back of the hoof.

                                If I had the hoof and rads in front of me I might decide to be very conservative about taking anything off, including anything at the toe, for fear that the entire hoof might collapse. For all we know the walls may already be full of nail holes, or crumbling, or who knows what? The horse may not be able to spare any hoof, so the only sensible way to get the toe back would be to take a little at a time, and that can't be done with a shoe nailed on to a hoof that may already be falling apart.
                                Last edited by kande04; Feb. 8, 2020, 03:30 PM.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  [QUOTE]
                                  Originally posted by JB View Post
                                  Personally,I don't think the cannon is angle enough to make a difference, and I don't know how any amount of angling would make P2 and P3 look like they do. Do you have an example that shows otherwise?
                                  No examples but if you're worried about a dorsiflexed dipj then I rather the cannon be straight up and down.


                                  A year into this and the foot isn't looking any different, and you're neither pleased nor concerned? Sure, sole depth is better, but the toe wall is no longer smooth, and the toe is longer though to be fair maybe it's the end of a cycle.

                                  I'm honestly trying to figure out what circumstances you have personally worked on such that no apparent progress on a foot like this has been made in a year. I am not saying these are easy to fix. I've seen some that were, and have seen 2 that did take a couple years to truly resolve, but at the year mark there was still obvious headway.
                                  I've had some where the foot came around in a shoeing or two. I've had ones like this one where very little improvement was ever shown. Actually did one just like this a few days ago. Very little progress but I got him sound.

                                  One thing that gets overlooked is what the horse owner wants, especially when they've been dealing with lameness issues. I can't think of a time where I shod a horse with lameness issues and made him sound where the horse owner had any interest in my grand scheme to get the horse's feet to where I thought was ideal. Once the horse is sound they don't want to make any changes!

                                  Is it that you feel the increased sole depth had to come first and *now* the back of the foot will/might start to stand up?
                                  I doubt the back of this foot is ever going to stand up but yeah get some sole on him and go from there....





                                  Eric Russell CJF

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by huntseat3 View Post
                                    So what should I do next?
                                    Ideally I'd like to put a shoe like this on to raise the angle to get some of the pressure off the back of the foot. Add a thick leather pad and soft pour to prevent excess movement at the heels and protect the sole from exfoliating.






                                    In your case, since you're already going the barshoe route, barshoe with 3 degree wedge pad and sole support. And very little trimming at the next shoeing cycle.


                                    Eric Russell CJF

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Arlomine View Post
                                      what im puzzled about is the length of the toe, It looks almost longer relative to the tip of the coffin bone in number two than number one.
                                      I would need someon to explain to me why delaying the break over on this way is a positive thing for this horse.
                                      The wall should be parallel to p3. With more sole depth the distance from coa to the tip of the toe is further. You also have to consider the height gained. The added height should zero out the added anterior length.





                                      Eric Russell CJF

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Obsidian Fire View Post

                                        My mare is NPA in the hind. She is on a 4-week cycle, and has been for over a year. She spent the first year in a shoe called "flip flops". We took films every 6 mos to see where we were. Now, she's in full steel shoes BUT -- the farrier flattens the ends and also uses leather pads (not wedges). So the heels are still a bit floated, the sole is supported with the packing inside the pad, and so far this is working. Her heels are not reverting back to the way they were. The other thing my farrier has done is rocker her toe. Yes, her hind feet. And not the shoe, the hoof itself. It's working.
                                        First, hopefully your mare was NPA and currently not NPA!

                                        Palmer and Plantar angles are completely different!

                                        So the toe is actually floated (non weight bearing) and the shoe is a flat shoe at the toe? Was the toe non weight bearing while the flip flop was on?

                                        And now the heel is being floated and the toe is floated at the same time?











                                        Eric Russell CJF

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          eruss — yes, she was negative plantar angle as per films, and it was visible to the eye as she was bullnosed.
                                          I am not sure how to answer you; farrier rockers the toe, she is shod flat except the heels are floated somewhat by his flattening out the end of the shoe. So she is weight bearing all around except a slight relief in the heel. Does that make sense?
                                          We tried a couple cycles of plain flat shoes to see if she would hold the heels but we were both a bit skeptical she was staying correct so that’s when we modified the shoe to see if that would work, rather than putting her back in flip flops.

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