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OTTB Let down protocol

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    I know people name Vee and Viv.. sooo.... I also find it funny when I call her in the field to say Miss Tris since horses are what keeps me away from the hubby for extra hours Lol.

    No to stud muffins, softee peppermint, apples, carrots and alfalfa cubes as treats. Next step is Oreos... my first OTTB was obsessed with them... and they are colored/marked the same
    Fourth N' Goal Training LLC.
    ~Specializing in Mom and Kid Approved Equitation and Jumper Horses

    *Horse Collector Status = Six Pack*

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by findeight View Post
      Well, Vy or Viv is a nice barn name...

      Looked at Equibase, kind of unusual, all 4 of her lifetime starts were between 11/4/19 and 12/3/19 at different tracks, bringing up the rear in all.. Bet she was a bit body sore after that. Hopefully she just got started late as a 4 year old for non health or soundness related reasons, which can happen. She probably hasn’t spent years in the track regime like many others.

      She’ll tell you what she wants and needs. As you get to know her better, it will get easier. Right now just do what you are doing. Seems to be working for both of you.
      I'll have to take a look at her papers again. i know she went through 5 owners since April of 2018. She was supposed to race 1/4/2020 too but the track didn't offer her class. I like her enough if she goes lame tommorow she can hang out in my herd and keep my other 5 year old company... My other 5 are late teens- mid 20's and slowing down.
      Fourth N' Goal Training LLC.
      ~Specializing in Mom and Kid Approved Equitation and Jumper Horses

      *Horse Collector Status = Six Pack*

      Comment


      • #23
        My boy was about to turn 4 when I brought him home last year. He had been off the track a few months and started his retraining. I decided to not ride him for the first two months I had him. I started an ulcer treatment with him and had my chirp do some adjustments. I did a lot of things on the ground just bond with him. Some days I lunged with tack, I did clicker training, just took him for hand walks around the farm, and ponied him from my steady Eddie gelding around the fields.

        in those two months, I really saw him relax not that he was a high strung type but he really seemed to enjoy the time we spent together. He loves the clicker work! It has really come in handy now that the fields are muddy;-)

        He now can do a training level dressage test and some lateral work. I also started free jumping this winter since we are now stuck inside.

        I did start PEMF with this past September. He LOVES it and what a difference it made with him.

        Louie didn’t eat any treats when I first had him but some discovered anything peppermint was delicious.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by City Ponies View Post

          She's adapted to turnout well, doesn't act a fool, on private turnout with fencemates but will join my other two mares soon. She's definitely adjusting well and needed some just quiet time. Brought her in the barn alone last night, no hollering or foolishness. Just took her grooming gracefully, enjoyed the pets from barn kids, and no more nasty mare face even with all the hands on I did. I still can't convince her to eat a treat, though she's eating meals better. Gonna put her in work but not heavy work until she has some more chill time, I need to get Chiro out for my gelding who's in full work anyway. Can't hurt. Feet are solid and thick, completely unbothered by the rocks and brick on the way to the barn with her missing shoe. So thats a plus, just need to fix those angles and take the damn toe grabs off.

          Her name is Vyborg.... yuck! I call her Tris (character from Divergent series).
          Your mare ran at the bottom of some really bad tracks and got beat 10-40 lengths by some really bad horses. Don’t let the chiro take you for a ride, she did not go fast enough to hurt anything. Hopefully she will show a bit more athletic ability as a show horse. What made you pick her?

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

            Pretty much ignore this entire post, including the stuff I am not quoting. This is just goofy. A masseuse and Chiro? Just a silly waste of money and an admission that a trainer doesn’t know what he or she is doing. The program you put the horse in gets them supple and working correctly. Physical baggage? Good grief.

            A race horse in training jogs and/or gallops one to two miles a day. Wanna know how long that takes? 5-7 minutes. Plus walking to the track, walking back to the barn, and 20 minutes of walking when they are done. They do fast work once or twice a week, and sometimes not at all if they are racing regularly. A work takes an average of 50 seconds. A race usually less than a minute and a half. They don’t lift weights, they don’t do wind sprints. Your 8 year old soccer star works 100x harder.

            So a logical progression of physical conditioning starting with a horse that is conditioned to sprint is where you are at. You just want him to go slower and longer, which he is already perfectly capable of doing. He is in good enough physical condition jump around several courses at a show, he just doesn’t know how to jump. But feel free to trail ride or hack for a good long time.
            I can usually stay above responding to your posts since I know responding to you is a waste of my time, but since you quoted me directly -- I'll fill in the blanks for those who don't really have much experience with OTTBs:

            Regarding chiropractors. It's your prerogative not to employ them. I use things if I've seen firsthand that they work. I've seen good chiropractors make a big difference in sport-horses, and in OTTBs. YMMV. I think a good one is worth their weight in gold. In my state, you have to be a vet to be a licensed chiropractor. My current chiropractor specializes in neurological horses (as a vet) so it is always quite interesting when I have her look at a new horse. She is able to accurately pin-point areas of concern that I have, without me saying them -- and her knowledge for how to fix small issues many OTTBs have (such as weak stifles or crookedness - very common) is invaluable. A good physio and/or chiropractor team, really makes the difference -- and if they didn't, you wouldn't see them used in top sport barns. But you do. Because the work they do to help alleviate body and muscle soreness works.

            "A race horse in training jogs and/or gallops one to two miles a day. Wanna know how long that takes? 5-7 minutes."
            Yes, you're right. And those other 23 hours and 53 minutes, they're standing in a stall or on a small hot-walker. Many don't get much turnout while they are actively racing. Working hard and standing still thereafter, is a recipe for overall body soreness. They work hard, and their muscles are sore. Studies, literature, and horsemen all know stalling for long lengths of time makes a horse bodysore. Racehorses are stalled horses. Do the math yourself.

            Here's the other thing about racing. It's hard on their bodies. They're worked hard, and the good barns see to it they're cared for. Many are worked hard on hooves shaped for "maximum breakover" (read: long toe, underrun heel) - there's plenty of literature out there that shows how stressful this is to the structures in the lower limb and hoof - and many OTTBs off of the track have had injuries because of this and are sound in spite of their really awful race angles.

            They're always some form of backsore. No matter what barn they come from. I've had some horses that have been from connections that treated them better than most sport-horse owners treat their horses, and I've had some that were dumped: every OTTB I have had from the track that was in race training, has had some form of body-soreness. For the ones where there were no acute injuries, it usually resolves within a few weeks of full turnout and/or resolving their feet.

            Most of them came (x-rayed) with NPAs behind, which makes horses backsore. Btw, if your mare has toegrabs especially behind, chances are there is some NPA brewing there - best to get that resolved ASAP. Usually a competent trimmer and/or farrier, with rim-pads, has resolved the issue for my horses that have come from the track with some seriously ugly angles.

            Anyway -- have to say having my program called goofy is a first, but I suppose there is a first time for everything. Good luck OP! Hope you continue to update us, about your new project and friend. Having OTTBs is wonderful. I can't stay away from them myself, and really enjoy the process of bringing them from the track to the show ring. It's very rewarding!
            AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by beowulf View Post

              I can usually stay above responding to your posts since I know responding to you is a waste of my time, but since you quoted me directly -- I'll fill in the blanks for those who don't really have much experience with OTTBs:...

              Yes, you're right. And those other 23 hours and 53 minutes, they're standing in a stall or on a small hot-walker. Many don't get much turnout while they are actively racing. Working hard and standing still thereafter, is a recipe for overall body soreness. They work hard, and their muscles are sore. Studies, literature, and horsemen all know stalling for long lengths of time makes a horse bodysore. Racehorses are stalled horses. Do the math yourself.
              If you can’t figure out how to get a horse working correctly and supple without a bunch of chiro, bodywork, etc then by all means get someone else to do it for you. Since you’ve never worked at the track, you probably don’t know that horses walk for 20 minutes or more after training, they don’t go directly into a stall. They also don’t go onto a hot walking machine after training. They get walked by hand and watered off. That is not an overall recipe for body soreness. The thousands of horses I’ve galloped did not have overall body soreness. The ones I own that come home for breaks do not have overall body sorenesss. Maybe it’s something that happens once they get into your program, since it seems to happen to you more frequently. Or maybe you just confuse a horse that has never worked in any kind of sport horse way of going with one that is sore. A lack of flexibility and suppleness does not mean a horse is body sore; the horse simply never had to use his muscle in that capacity before.
              Last edited by Palm Beach; Jan. 10, 2020, 07:32 AM.

              Comment


              • #27
                I tend to listen to the horse, some want/need time to chillax some don't want it.
                I'll be honest, I prefer to not let them all the way down before bringing them back to work.

                "The Friesian syndrome... a mix between Black Beauty disease and DQ Butterfly farting ailment." Alibi_18

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                  Your mare ran at the bottom of some really bad tracks and got beat 10-40 lengths by some really bad horses. Don’t let the chiro take you for a ride, she did not go fast enough to hurt anything. Hopefully she will show a bit more athletic ability as a show horse. What made you pick her?
                  Despite her ugly hoof angles she's really well put together, even in an ugly duckling stage right now. She's not flashy and IMO undermuscled through the neck and loin compare to most OTTB ads I see. That said, her legs are super straight and have good substantial bone for a TB mare (much thicker than my Appendix mare)front and back with good hock, hip and shoulder angles with a deep chest and very short backed, which I prefer for my jumpers. She had a very kind eye in the video and quiet demeanor in hand. And she moves while not overly flashy, very efficient to me. I do jumpers, so movement isn't as important as soundness and effort. Plus she's my sized at around 15.3, I'm 5'1" and like them handier a bit smaller. Her personality while not snuggly yet is very quiet and professional. She does as asked thus far and is not flighty, quirky, spooky, or otherwise bat$hit crazy or stupid.
                  Fourth N' Goal Training LLC.
                  ~Specializing in Mom and Kid Approved Equitation and Jumper Horses

                  *Horse Collector Status = Six Pack*

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                    If you can’t figure out how to get a horse working correctly and supple without a bunch of chiro, bodywork, etc then by all means get someone else to do it for you. Since you’ve never worked at the track, you probably don’t know that horses walk for 20 minutes or more after training, they don’t go directly into a stall. They also don’t go onto a hot walking machine after training. They get walked by hand and watered off. That is not an overall recipe for body soreness. The thousands of horses I’ve galloped did not have overall body soreness. The ones I own that come home for breaks do not have overall body sorenesss. Maybe it’s something that happens once they get into your program, since it seems to happen to you more frequently. Or maybe you just confuse a horse that has never worked in any kind of sport horse way of going with one that is sore. A lack of flexibility and suppleness does not mean a horse is body sore; the horse simply never had to use his muscle in that capacity before.
                    I know it’s hard to tell when a Breyer horse is unsound since they don’t move, and I don’t expect that level of education from you, but I hope no one on this forum ever takes your posts seriously.

                    I usually pick up TBs that were either warhorses, or horses needing a soft landing. Since I do this for a hobby rather than a profession, I’m not usually picking up the world class horses in world class barns - though I’ve had a few over the years. You can attack my program or my experience if you want, but it doesn’t change the reality of the race world, which is that most of these horses come off of the track sore and needing let down in some form of way.
                    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by beowulf View Post

                      I know it’s hard to tell when a Breyer horse is unsound since they don’t move, and I don’t expect that level of education from you, but I hope no one on this forum ever takes your posts seriously.

                      I usually pick up TBs that were either warhorses, or horses needing a soft landing. Since I do this for a hobby rather than a profession, I’m not usually picking up the world class horses in world class barns - though I’ve had a few over the years. You can attack my program or my experience if you want, but it doesn’t change the reality of the race world, which is that most of these horses come off of the track sore and needing let down in some form of way.
                      Again, you are not familiar with racing. There is a big horse shortage, and any horse that is simply “sore” gets the soreness fixed and keeps on racing. The only horses that leave the track are those with injuries that make continuing to race too risky, ones that get too old, or those that are too slow.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                        Again, you are not familiar with racing. There is a big horse shortage, and any horse that is simply “sore” gets the soreness fixed and keeps on racing. The only horses that leave the track are those with injuries that make continuing to race too risky, ones that get too old, or those that are too slow.
                        Maybe... just maybe... they're slow because they're sore somewhere.

                        *mind blown*

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Maybe they're leaving the track for an injury that could easily be rehabbed, but that the owner doesn't want to spend the time and money to do, and maybe that injury wouldn't have happened if more attention was paid to the biomechanics of the horse. Mine came to me as a barely raced 3yo with huge, warm osselets, and loooong toes and underrun heels - huh, how does good training and management let that happen? Imagine how sore her body was, and imagine where it was headed if they hadn't decided she was just "too slow".

                          Maybe they're leaving the track because the owners don't want to feed them over the Winter.

                          Maybe if someone did some actual active work themselves and sustained a "well dang, how did I do THAT" injury they'd understand that even despite excellent care, crap happens, and when it happens, often the best thing is to get external assistance to keep it from getting worse, and/or to hasten healing. Who's gonna go ride-fix the horse who twisted his back while rolling and getting cast in his stall?

                          I thought soreness wasn't a thing but now it is? How does soreness get fixed? Just time off? What's cheaper - feeding a fit TB for however many weeks or months it takes to get "fixed", or getting a couple of massage sessions so he can go back to racing and earning some money? I thought if there was soreness, proper work and training was the real answer, but how many racehorses in training get "normal" riding, let alone work aimed at improving body health? Do you go out and put that horse into dressage work, that same horse who doesn't know how to go around like a sporthorse?

                          So. Many. Questions!

                          We should all be SO lucky as to live a life where everything is solvable with more or better training, and where we could be so certain that if it doesn't happen to us, it doesn't happen to anyone else.

                          We should all be SO lucky to be able to gallop 1000s of racehorses and never, ever even tweak something worse than good ol' rest will take care of.

                          I'm sure Todd Pletcher would love to know he's silly and ridiculous and wasting his time and money by having his horses worked on.


                          ______________________________
                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post

                            Maybe... just maybe... they're slow because they're sore somewhere.

                            *mind blown*
                            No, they are slow. They were born slow and no amount of training will make them fast. Kind of like saying a bad jumper is maybe...just maybe...a bad jumper because they're sore somewhere.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by JB View Post
                              Maybe they're leaving the track for an injury that could easily be rehabbed, but that the owner doesn't want to spend the time and money to do, and maybe that injury wouldn't have happened if more attention was paid to the biomechanics of the horse. Mine came to me as a barely raced 3yo with huge, warm osselets, and loooong toes and underrun heels - huh, how does good training and management let that happen? Imagine how sore her body was, and imagine where it was headed if they hadn't decided she was just "too slow".

                              Maybe they're leaving the track because the owners don't want to feed them over the Winter.

                              Maybe if someone did some actual active work themselves and sustained a "well dang, how did I do THAT" injury they'd understand that even despite excellent care, crap happens, and when it happens, often the best thing is to get external assistance to keep it from getting worse, and/or to hasten healing. Who's gonna go ride-fix the horse who twisted his back while rolling and getting cast in his stall?

                              I thought soreness wasn't a thing but now it is? How does soreness get fixed? Just time off? What's cheaper - feeding a fit TB for however many weeks or months it takes to get "fixed", or getting a couple of massage sessions so he can go back to racing and earning some money? I thought if there was soreness, proper work and training was the real answer, but how many racehorses in training get "normal" riding, let alone work aimed at improving body health? Do you go out and put that horse into dressage work, that same horse who doesn't know how to go around like a sporthorse?

                              So. Many. Questions!

                              We should all be SO lucky as to live a life where everything is solvable with more or better training, and where we could be so certain that if it doesn't happen to us, it doesn't happen to anyone else.

                              We should all be SO lucky to be able to gallop 1000s of racehorses and never, ever even tweak something worse than good ol' rest will take care of.

                              I'm sure Todd Pletcher would love to know he's silly and ridiculous and wasting his time and money by having his horses worked on.

                              The ones that are still capable of racing get time off and come back in and race again. Duh. They don't get given away. Right now, the purse for a $5k claimer (which is the bottom in MD) is $15,000. You really think 90 days of turnout is going to deter an owner from bringing a horse back into training after 90 days? And if he just wanted to unload the horse, in about one 2 minute phone call he'd have the horse sold for $8,500. Even being honest about the horse needing 90 days off. Oh and btw, they race in the winter in many states. And Canada. So not sure why you think winter matters. If you have a turf horse you send it south.

                              There are people that do massage and chiro and other modalities at the track. Most of them are unable to make a full time living doing it and have other gigs going as well. The thing is - it really does not make much of a difference. Every few years someone comes around with some contraption or other, and some trainers have them go to work on a bunch of horses, and performance does not change. With racing, you can track performance because results are public. You can check times. But all the massage and chiro in the world DOES NOT MAKE HORSES RUN FASTER, It's been around for decades and it does not affect performance.

                              So you've had one - ONE - horse off the track and you extrapolate that experience to all race horses and trainers? Hmm, not surprised. Check your horse's registered name on Equibase and see how much money he was making. Did he race? How fast were the works? Is he big? Some big horses don't hold up to fast work. The best size for a race horse is 16.1h and under.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                                The ones that are still capable of racing get time off and come back in and race again. Duh. They don't get given away. Right now, the purse for a $5k claimer (which is the bottom in MD) is $15,000. You really think 90 days of turnout is going to deter an owner from bringing a horse back into training after 90 days? And if he just wanted to unload the horse, in about one 2 minute phone call he'd have the horse sold for $8,500. Even being honest about the horse needing 90 days off. Oh and btw, they race in the winter in many states. And Canada. So not sure why you think winter matters. If you have a turf horse you send it south.
                                Read. For. Comprehension. You gave 3 reasons, and only 3, why horses leave the track. I gave others.

                                There are people that do massage and chiro and other modalities at the track. Most of them are unable to make a full time living doing it and have other gigs going as well.
                                Because the majority don't believe in it.

                                The thing is - it really does not make much of a difference.
                                In your opinion. And your opinion gets validated by all the people using it for the wrong reason, or assuming 1 session will turn a loser into a winner.

                                Every few years someone comes around with some contraption or other, and some trainers have them go to work on a bunch of horses, and performance does not change. With racing, you can track performance because results are public. You can check times. But all the massage and chiro in the world DOES NOT MAKE HORSES RUN FASTER, It's been around for decades and it does not affect performance.
                                Why do you think it's all and only about being faster?

                                So you've had one - ONE - horse off the track and you extrapolate that experience to all race horses and trainers? Hmm, not surprised. Check your horse's registered name on Equibase and see how much money he was making. Did he race? How fast were the works? Is he big? Some big horses don't hold up to fast work. The best size for a race horse is 16.1h and under.
                                Read.For. Comprehension. I gave you the reason why my mare was let go. I know her record. I know how many times she raced - "came to me as a barely raced 3yo " (because you obviously didn't read much), and since you can't connect the dots - huge osselets and horrible feet make a horse slow(er). So of course she was sold because she was "slow", because who can run fast (enough) on a skinny (not even racing lean, just skinny) body with craptastic feet and obviously poor training (huge osselets)? And you don't think she was sore?

                                But unlike you, who extrapolate all your (questionable) experiences to everyone else, I did not. I gave you my 1 experience of a horse who had injuries - osselets, big and warm. Are you saying osselets make further racing too risky? Yes? I guess you've never seen warhorses come OT with old, cold set osselets then? If no, then why wasn't she taken out of training to recover, and why didn't someone give her feet the attention they deserved? Knowing you won't answer, I'll tell you - because she was a tool to be used to get money, and when she wasn't bringing that money in, it was very black and white to her owners - don't concern yourself with figuring out why (even though it was smacking them in the face), just get rid of her. And if that fits into your category of "too slow", then so be it.

                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by JB View Post
                                  Read. For. Comprehension. You gave 3 reasons, and only 3, why horses leave the track. I gave others.


                                  Because the majority don't believe in it.


                                  In your opinion. And your opinion gets validated by all the people using it for the wrong reason, or assuming 1 session will turn a loser into a winner.


                                  Why do you think it's all and only about being faster?


                                  Read.For. Comprehension. I gave you the reason why my mare was let go. I know her record. I know how many times she raced - "came to me as a barely raced 3yo " (because you obviously didn't read much), and since you can't connect the dots - huge osselets and horrible feet make a horse slow(er). So of course she was sold because she was "slow", because who can run fast (enough) on a skinny (not even racing lean, just skinny) body with craptastic feet and obviously poor training (huge osselets)? And you don't think she was sore?

                                  But unlike you, who extrapolate all your (questionable) experiences to everyone else, I did not. I gave you my 1 experience of a horse who had injuries - osselets, big and warm. Are you saying osselets make further racing too risky? Yes? I guess you've never seen warhorses come OT with old, cold set osselets then? If no, then why wasn't she taken out of training to recover, and why didn't someone give her feet the attention they deserved? Knowing you won't answer, I'll tell you - because she was a tool to be used to get money, and when she wasn't bringing that money in, it was very black and white to her owners - don't concern yourself with figuring out why (even though it was smacking them in the face), just get rid of her. And if that fits into your category of "too slow", then so be it.
                                  Again, you don’t know much about racing. It’s about being faster because, duh, the fastest time wins. And it’s dead easy to measure performance. So bring in the chiro and the masseuse- does the horse run faster? It doesn’t take rocket science to understand it.

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                                  • #37
                                    Something something catch more flies with honey

                                    Now back to the OTTB tips, please! Following with interest. OP, congrats on your mare. I was fortunate to know and love a similar mare. They're something special. ♥️

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      I second the hard starlight mints—not the puffy, soft ones. That seems to be the go-to treat for race horses while at the track. Dollar General sells big bags for a dollar.

                                      Bonus points if you crinkle the cellophane wrapper before offering it. My TBs can hear a mint wrapper from a mile away (and they came to me already knowing this sound) and it's invaluable for calling them in from the field, getting them to walk somewhere scary and encouraging them to stand still for vets and farriers.
                                      "Dogs give and give and give. Cats are the gift that keeps on grifting." —Bradley Trevor Greive

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