Sport Horse Spotlight

Sir Donnerhall_02Beelitz

Real Estate Spotlight

Walter Moore rear view

Sale Spotlight

COTH_without Subscribe
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Cushing's/IR in 4 Year Old? UPDATE: Positive for Cushings

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Cushing's/IR in 4 Year Old? UPDATE: Positive for Cushings

    Would like to know your thoughts. Bean is a Shetland X, just turned 4. I've had him for two years. He came from a not so good situation, but don't know a lot of his background. He was in poor shape when I got him. I have always been very careful about what he gets fed, making sure he doesn't get too fat. His hay is weighed for every feeding so I know how much he is getting. He is basically fed an I/R diet due to the fact he is predisposed, but also because I have an oldie who is Cushing's and possibly borderline I/R.
    Bean has terrible seasonal allergies, had had a couple bouts of mild laminitis we think due to steroid shots for the allergies, and seemingly diet changes. I always scratched my head when this occurred because I've been so careful with him.
    Recently we've been treating him for colitis, from which he has recovered after over a month of treatment. Vet isn't sure what caused it, but thinks it may be due to pain medication for issues with his teeth and teething. Part of his treatment for the colitis was increasing alfalfa to help buffer his gut in addition to giving him Sucralfate 3x a day. I worked him up to 2 lbs of alfalfa per day of his 7 lbs total of forage. Bean typically gets 7 lbs of Bermuda grass hay per day over three feedings with a little alfalfa sprinkled on it. He also gets High Point Grass supplement.
    When I took him in yesterday for his recheck, the vet noticed right away that he basically has a full blown winter coat. Now this isn't totally abnormal for him, because he does grow a triple coat every winter, but it did seem to come early this year. My Cushing's boy has just now started his winter coat. She also noticed he is a bit on the heavy side, and has developed a cresty neck. I did think he was looking a bit rounder, but thought it was either my imagination or the fact that he's so fluffy already.
    After talking to the vet, and thinking back, I realized he didn't get as 'slick' this summer as the year before, also he has had at least 3 bouts of mild laminitis that we chalked up to different things, but also due to the fact that he is a pony. The vet did verify that my thoughts on his weight gain were correct.
    I was shocked when she suggested testing for Cushing's and I/R. We went ahead and did that, should get results next week. I'm just flabbergasted that a horse so young could potentially have such serious issues. The thought had crossed my mind when I noticed his coat coming in so heavy, but right away dismissed it because of his age.
    Bean has had extensive training and is such a good boy. My first training project, which I've enjoyed so much. I have to admit that I'm a bit frustrated with the fact that he's had so many issues despite my best efforts, as my other horse has had numerous health problems, and I was really looking forward to having a healthy horse for a change.
    Does anyone have experience/knowledge of horses so young with these issues? Even horses well managed like mine is?
    Last edited by SLedbetter; Sep. 27, 2019, 08:28 PM.

  • 4horses
    replied
    Get slow feed nets and attach them between 2 planks in the paddock fence. Then you can just toss hay in the nets through the slats in the fence. You will need to cut some wood pieces to hold the nets in place. I typically use 2" by 2" by 8ft boards- cut those to size and run screws in them to hold the nets in place.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by SLedbetter View Post
    Heard from the vet yesterday, Bean's leptin came back high.
    Typical of IR, but doesn't tell you anything about HOW IR he is. Any chance the owner and vet will run the Intravenous Glucose Tolerance Test? That would give them a good idea how bad the IR is, as it looks at how long it takes to return to the baseline glucose reading after administering IV dextrose

    His ACTH was only mildly elevated. I have not seen the actual results yet, but have asked the vet to email them to me. The vet feels that we could wait to treat for Cushings, and retest in 6 months due to both his age, and the time of year. I am thinking this is what we will do.
    That doesn't sound like Cushing's to me. Mildly elevated compared to the higher end of the seasonal rise elevation? Or mildly elevated compared to normal, as in, it's a mild seasonal rise? The difference is critical.

    As far as the I/R, we are working on a plan to try to get that under control. Will also retest on that in 6 months.
    Any suggestions on diet, supplements? Bean currently gets primarily Bermuda grass with some alfalfa. I am going to get the hay tested to see where the levels are, but it won't be ideal, as my one and only supplier gets hay from two different places. But I think it will be a good place to start. I am okay with soaking the hay if need be.
    In our area, anything other than Bermuda or alfalfa is difficult to get on a regular basis. I'm also wondering about insulin spikes, he gets fed 4 times a day, but does go for longer periods at night without feed. How to do you feed a horse that is I/R, tends towards being heavy, and avoid long periods without food? Bean will tend to ration himself if you give him enough hay, but I think it could cause him to get fat pretty quickly.
    Hay nets. You'll just have to play around and see which one works for him but there are tons out there. That's great that you can test the hay and soak if needed. Some IR horses do fine on alfalfa, some don't, so make sure part of his regular handling is checking for heat in his feet, preferably at the same time of day each time, just to keep tabs on things. Check digital pulse regularly too - finding a small one will help manage and hopefully prevent something bigger.

    I've looked at some potential supplements, Heiro, Remission, Quiessence, etc. Am considering adding some type of supplement besides the High Point Grass I have him on now. I would appreciate input on this as well.
    I wouldn't waste money on Heiro as a starting point. Remission and Quiessence are better places to start. I also like Uckele's U-Balance Thyroid.

    Bean has been out of work for the last month or so, we've been moving and I haven't had the time to spend with him. He will be going back to work in the next week or so, as I know that exercise is important for these horses as well.
    That will help a lot

    Leave a comment:


  • SLedbetter
    replied
    Heard from the vet yesterday, Bean's leptin came back high. His ACTH was only mildly elevated. I have not seen the actual results yet, but have asked the vet to email them to me. The vet feels that we could wait to treat for Cushings, and retest in 6 months due to both his age, and the time of year. I am thinking this is what we will do. As far as the I/R, we are working on a plan to try to get that under control. Will also retest on that in 6 months.
    Any suggestions on diet, supplements? Bean currently gets primarily Bermuda grass with some alfalfa. I am going to get the hay tested to see where the levels are, but it won't be ideal, as my one and only supplier gets hay from two different places. But I think it will be a good place to start. I am okay with soaking the hay if need be.
    In our area, anything other than Bermuda or alfalfa is difficult to get on a regular basis. I'm also wondering about insulin spikes, he gets fed 4 times a day, but does go for longer periods at night without feed. How to do you feed a horse that is I/R, tends towards being heavy, and avoid long periods without food? Bean will tend to ration himself if you give him enough hay, but I think it could cause him to get fat pretty quickly.
    I've looked at some potential supplements, Heiro, Remission, Quiessence, etc. Am considering adding some type of supplement besides the High Point Grass I have him on now. I would appreciate input on this as well.
    Bean has been out of work for the last month or so, we've been moving and I haven't had the time to spend with him. He will be going back to work in the next week or so, as I know that exercise is important for these horses as well.

    Leptin results: 11.98 ng/ML. Its a bit confusing on the report as to what the reference range is. It looks like the reference ranges changed in 2016, and it lists 'Additional Reference Ranges: Intermediate 10-20 High >20 ng/mL. Prior range lists high as >7.
    Anyone with experience reading these results want to chime in?
    Last edited by SLedbetter; Oct. 4, 2019, 11:50 AM. Reason: Added Leptin results

    Leave a comment:


  • onthebit
    replied
    Originally posted by SLedbetter View Post

    I've read that horses can live an average of 5 years after diagnosis if they are treated, but I know some people on here have had horses live much longer than that. I think it depends on several factors, the individual, the severity, how early it was diagnosed, quality of care, etc etc. I hope my boy can live a long life.
    We board retirees and have had many residents live 10+ years with Cushing's, and these horses were not 4 when diagnosed (our youngest diagnosed with PPID was 10 but he'd probably had it for years at that point. I had to do a lot of pushing to even get him tested because he was "too young" for PPID). I am another in the camp that would want to know what reference range was used for the ACTH levels at this time of year. We routinely test at this time of year, but using the proper reference range for season as well as geographic location is important.

    Leave a comment:


  • DinkyDonk
    replied
    Originally posted by SLedbetter View Post

    I've read that horses can live an average of 5 years after diagnosis if they are treated, but I know some people on here have had horses live much longer than that. I think it depends on several factors, the individual, the severity, how early it was diagnosed, quality of care, etc etc. I hope my boy can live a long life.
    My hinny was diagnosed 6 years ago this coming spring at age 11 and is doing great aside from the occasional hoof abscess. He does tend to grow and shed his hair continually all year so gets groomed a lot, but I've not had to clip him yet. He's not IR, so gets to go graze with the horses (and mini donks) but like the mini donks, never without a grazing muzzle. His blood is pulled every spring to make sure his numbers are staying good (was tested twice a year until we found the correct amount of pergolide to control his ACTH).. He was having some thrush issues, and after trying all the traditional thrush medications, tried a product with the active ingredient being benzalkonium chloride, and that has resolved the thrush. He's now on a 6 week trim schedule with my horses as opposed to being on the 12 week schedule of my donkeys. He really is no more maintenance than any of my other equines other than a little more grooming and spraying his feet to keep away thrush once or twice a week, and of course his daily dose of pergolide suspension.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by SLedbetter View Post

    I've read that horses can live an average of 5 years after diagnosis if they are treated, but I know some people on here have had horses live much longer than that. I think it depends on several factors, the individual, the severity, how early it was diagnosed, quality of care, etc etc. I hope my boy can live a long life.
    You're right, a LOT of horses live much longer than 5 years, if all the right things fall into place, which really means early detection and early treatment, with regular monitoring and increasing doses of pergolide (Prascend) as necessary.

    But I also think a lot of older horses aren't diagnosed early enough, with owners and vets brushing off some weight and muscle loss, and a heavier coat, as purely age-related So being older, already compromised for possibly quite a few years, they don't get as many years after diagnosis.

    I'm really interested in the results!

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by Gamma View Post

    ??? That seems way off to me, we have a lot of metabolic problems in my area (all that lovely grass), and a lot of horses are diagnosed, put on treatment, and still kicking it a decade on. I wonder if that number is skewed by more horses tending to be diagnosed towards the end of their natural life.
    What you're describing sounds like insulin resistance. That can be well-managed in most horses, and if done well then yes, most horses can live decades with a good career (and having a job helps the IR issue).

    That is very different from Cushing's, which is a disease of a growing pituitary gland. You can't stop that, but pergolide slows things down and helps minimize life-threatening side effects like laminitis.

    Leave a comment:


  • fjordmom
    replied
    It's been a while since we PMed about Bean when you first got him. Sorry to hear he is still struggling with some issues.

    I would strongly suggest looking into the MSM for his midge sensitivity. My Fjord with sweet itch has been on it for several years now and is doing better and better every year.

    Also, look into Heiro. It is a supplement for IR/laminitic horses. Vit E and magnesium as well as some herbs in it. He is on that as well. Hard to say for sure if it has helped, but I'm taking the better safe than sorry approach since he had one minor laminitic episode early on. My chiro vet had high praise for its use. He's pretty old school but has used it personally for one of his and encouraged me to use it. I did see overall improvements in his coat and other subtle health and well-being areas. He has become very "talkative," more energetic (in a good way), and just seemed like a very happy camper this year. It's taken a long time (years).

    This darn IR/Cushings/immune system thing is such a moving target. It is frustrating. I'm happy for every small gain I make. Hope you and Bean can get there too.

    Leave a comment:


  • SLedbetter
    replied
    Originally posted by Gamma View Post

    ??? That seems way off to me, we have a lot of metabolic problems in my area (all that lovely grass), and a lot of horses are diagnosed, put on treatment, and still kicking it a decade on. I wonder if that number is skewed by more horses tending to be diagnosed towards the end of their natural life.
    That would be my guess. My other horse, also Cushings is 21, and is going on year 3 of treatment. He's doing better than ever. It's BYOG here, (Bring Your Own Grass), so my horses are on dry lot all the time. Which, in my situation is a good thing.
    I think with the increased awareness of PPID, more horses are being diagnosed much earlier and living longer.

    Leave a comment:


  • SLedbetter
    replied
    Gamma: I will be looking into some different supplements for him once we know exactly what is going on. Bean we are fairly sure is sensitive to midges/flies. From my understanding there are two 'types' of allergy. One is an acute reaction such as hives, which will typically respond well to antihistimines, the other is a 'systemic' allergy which does not. Bean has what I believe is the second type, and does not get relief from antihistimines. He did much better this year, I started proactive treatment early in February. He has sheets, fans, and the allergy supplements which really did help. I do wonder if the immune system issue that goes along with Cushings could be part of the reason he has these allergies to begin with, and would they improve once we get the Cushings under control?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gamma
    replied
    Originally posted by SLedbetter View Post

    I've read that horses can live an average of 5 years after diagnosis if they are treated, but I know some people on here have had horses live much longer than that. I think it depends on several factors, the individual, the severity, how early it was diagnosed, quality of care, etc etc. I hope my boy can live a long life.
    ??? That seems way off to me, we have a lot of metabolic problems in my area (all that lovely grass), and a lot of horses are diagnosed, put on treatment, and still kicking it a decade on. I wonder if that number is skewed by more horses tending to be diagnosed towards the end of their natural life.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gamma
    replied
    I have a big long thread about treating my horse-pony's allergies. I would hugely recommend getting the allergy test done at least... it gives you so many more choices with regards to treatment even if you decide against allergy shots. (Removing any allergens that you can, proactive antihistimine when you know an allergen is a about to spike, etc., I've written pages and pages about this before.)

    Although for a young horse, the potential of allergy shots makes more and more sense--if you can potentially treat for 5 years and then "cured", vs having to manage every single year (with the disclaimer that allergy shots actually working can be hit or miss, but you can usually tell if it's working in 3-6 months, and when it does work it's magic).

    Leave a comment:


  • SLedbetter
    replied
    Originally posted by 4horses View Post
    That is very odd especially so young. What would be the lifespan of cushings in a horse so young?
    I've read that horses can live an average of 5 years after diagnosis if they are treated, but I know some people on here have had horses live much longer than that. I think it depends on several factors, the individual, the severity, how early it was diagnosed, quality of care, etc etc. I hope my boy can live a long life.

    Leave a comment:


  • SLedbetter
    replied
    Originally posted by BWP View Post


    The reference range for the acth test varies throughout the year to take into account seasonal changes (at least the test we use here in the uk)
    Cornell University adjusts for the seasonal rise on testing done this time of year. According to my vet after speaking with them, there is also a difference in time frame for seasonal rise depending on where you live geographically. Here in the desert southwest, very short time period.
    I will get actual numbers on Monday or Tuesday next week.

    Leave a comment:


  • BWP
    replied
    Originally posted by 4horses View Post
    Would testing at this time of year even be accurate? As most healthy horses have elevated levels at this time?

    The reference range for the acth test varies throughout the year to take into account seasonal changes (at least the test we use here in the uk)

    Leave a comment:


  • S1969
    replied
    Originally posted by 4horses View Post
    Would testing at this time of year even be accurate? As most healthy horses have elevated levels at this time?
    Well, I'd be curious of the number. If it was 50, for example (normal range of 9-35) I agree that might just be a seasonal rise. If it was 200….I think it would have been positive no matter when it was taken.

    My pony is a metabolic disaster; I wouldn't be surprised if he had been + for Cushings at that age, since he was nearly dead at 12 when I got him. I wonder if some smaller ponies/minis have Cushings at a young age and are just thought to be "typical ponies" that need special diets.

    Leave a comment:


  • 4horses
    replied
    Would testing at this time of year even be accurate? As most healthy horses have elevated levels at this time?

    Leave a comment:


  • 4horses
    replied
    That is very odd especially so young. What would be the lifespan of cushings in a horse so young?

    Leave a comment:


  • SLedbetter
    replied
    Update: Got test results back today, haven't heard exact results. Vet called and left a message that due to Bean's ACTH levels we need to start him on Prascend. I emailed them, (they were super busy today), and got the response that the vet would call me Monday with a treatment plan for starting the medication. Results for leptin (I/R) aren't in yet, should be in early next week. Ugh. I just can't believe this is happening to me!

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X