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Shoeing and lameness

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  • Shoeing and lameness

    I’ll try to be detailed as possible without writing a novel! The question is at the bottom.

    Grade gelding (Latigo), 12-14 yr old purchased him in June ‘19

    Latigo appeared sound when we test rode him, of course we fell in love and bought him. He was delivered on June 14, 2019. He arrived with a number of conditions. Shipping fever, skin infection, so many fly bites on his front legs and a swollen RR cannon bone with clear hoof print on it. He was doctored and on stall/paddock rest for about 2 weeks.

    In the mean time, we had his shoes replaced (they were WAY past the date). After 2 weeks we decided he was all
    better and started riding him. He was RF lame😢. Farrier came back and treated like a close nail or maybe a brewing abscess. No improvements after 7 days. He came back and took another look and sent me to the vet for X-Rays.

    RF: He was loosely diagnosed with Navicular with NO rotation. I say loosely because there is a spot, that could be creating a navicular artifact (I think I said that correctly). LF: clear

    Sent the rads to the farrier and fast forward 6 weeks, from then1st shoeing, and farrier put a plastic wedge with frog support and a rubberball like material under the pad.

    I feel like he’s more lame now than he was with just regualr
    shoes on 😢 Is there a period of adjustment when adding things, such as wedges? Is this added lameness just him adjusting to the new angle. I’ve just read some horrible things about wedges and how it can actually
    crush bones. If he needs them off I want them off NOW! I don’t want to create more problems 😢



  • #2
    I’m not well versed in wedges, just enough to know there’s different degrees and what degree it is will affect things. However my girl was diagnosed with navicular years ago. I ended up have three different vets prescribe three different shoes. She only likes one. Mine hates frog pressure, which most navicular shoes have. Right now she’s in a custom bar shoe, full pads, with magic cushion and lambs wool spread around the frog. We did try the rubber ball like stuff, hated it. She just doesn’t like some things. At the same time I knew another mare with navicular that only had shoes in the winter and they were funkier looking than mine.

    I would talk to the vet and see if they have any other ideas of shoes to try, every horse is different and what’s something different. You can also see about sending the xrays to another vet to see what they say.

    If it was my horse and they seemed lamer with the wedge I’d change it back. Horses are pretty good at telling us what they don’t like.

    Comment


    • #3
      That 2nd xray is pretty difficult to tell anything. They should be using a contrast putty along the front of the wall so you can quantitatively measure vertical rotation. If the horse is lamer with wedges, I'd pop those off regardless; I've found many many times that they only help for a few cycles anyway.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Phaefner View Post

        I feel like he’s more lame now than he was with just regualr
        shoes on 😢 Is there a period of adjustment when adding things, such as wedges? Is this added lameness just him adjusting to the new angle. I’ve just read some horrible things about wedges and how it can actually
        crush bones. If he needs them off I want them off NOW! I don’t want to create more problems 😢

        I won't comment on the x-rays because I am not an x-ray guru, but wedges should improve him and not make it worse.

        Wedges are NOT perfect because you are just moving the "stress" to another area and if the horse has heel pain from navicular-type changes, the wedges aren't solving anything. But, if the horse needs pain relief, wedges can be very valuable. (I have two horses that wear wedges and one does have mild navicular bony changes on x-ray).

        How high of the wedge did you farrier do? 2 degrees? 3 degrees?

        Not sure what you mean about wedge that "crush bones"??? I haven't heard that.
        It is not enough to know how to ride; one must know how to fall.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by beau159 View Post

          I won't comment on the x-rays because I am not an x-ray guru, but wedges should improve him and not make it worse.

          Wedges are NOT perfect because you are just moving the "stress" to another area and if the horse has heel pain from navicular-type changes, the wedges aren't solving anything. But, if the horse needs pain relief, wedges can be very valuable. (I have two horses that wear wedges and one does have mild navicular bony changes on x-ray).

          How high of the wedge did you farrier do? 2 degrees? 3 degrees?

          Not sure what you mean about wedge that "crush bones"??? I haven't heard that.
          I may have exaggerated by using the term “crushing” but from what I’ve read it is changing the point of pressure and increases the force that already caused the break down adding additional pressure to the coffin bone and supporting ligaments. 🤷*♀️ I’m new to all this lameness stuff. Of all the horses my mom owned not a single one of them were ever lame. Farrier would come and trim and leave with no problems. I buy a horse and everything just goes all wrong 😢

          He didnt tell me the degree. He just said it was the step above bar shoes 🤷*♀️ He also made an adjustment to the breakover on the RH to eliminate the overreaching. I feel like we are making so many changes without any results. I’m frustrated! I don’t want start questioning his work but I just want him sound like when we test rode him!

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by specifiedcupcake View Post
            That 2nd xray is pretty difficult to tell anything. They should be using a contrast putty along the front of the wall so you can quantitatively measure vertical rotation. If the horse is lamer with wedges, I'd pop those off regardless; I've found many many times that they only help for a few cycles anyway.
            I don’t know why they didn’t do that 🤷*♀️ I went to the vet and told him what was going on. He did flexion tests and x-rays. This is what I got. He said maybe navicular or maybe something else but there’s no rotation and he has thin hoof walls. Put him on Isoxsuprine, a hoof supplement and said if there isn’t improvements after 30 days we will stop using it. Use the aspirin I have at home and if needed he will prescribe me some Bute. He said farrier will shoe him sound enough for what we will use him for. Continue riding him at a walk, very little trotting, and no cantering until he is sound at a trot. And no tight circles.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by specifiedcupcake View Post
              That 2nd xray is pretty difficult to tell anything. They should be using a contrast putty along the front of the wall so you can quantitatively measure vertical rotation. If the horse is lamer with wedges, I'd pop those off regardless; I've found many many times that they only help for a few cycles anyway.
              Oh and these x-ray photos were just taken off the computer screen. The actual pictures on the computer screen looked way better than what I have. I’ve lost some of the resolution between photos off the computer screen and then converting it from the iPhone photo file to a jpeg. It wouldn’t just upload my iPhone pictures.

              Comment


              • #8
                Isoxsuprine is not exactly a hoof supplement. It's a vasodilator used for laminitis and navicular to improve the circulation to the foot.

                When you did the PPE did you drug test him? Just wondering if maybe he was not quite sound the first time you tried him.

                Can you post pictures of the outside of the feet? Like good ground level ones on a hard surface so you can see the angles from at least the front and the sides. The bottom wouldn't hurt either x

                Comment


                • #9
                  Frog pads (i assume that's what you mean by frog support) usually make horses with navicular disease more uncomfortable. they differ from wedges in that the bulk of the pressure goes to the frog. this has many benefits for other hoof issues, but i would stay away from that with navicular. Wedges, however, should help.

                  apologies if i misunderstood and he does not have frog pads.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Did you do a PPE before you bought him? Is it possible he was on painkillers for your. trial ride?

                    I'm a little confused about the diagnosis because typically rotation is connected to founder not navicular syndrome. Hoof angles or bad trims can make navicular pain worse but the source of pain is changes in the navicular bone ot area.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Did your vet block the RF heel to determine that's where the pain was coming from, or just take the xray? Can you post hoof pics?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Phaefner View Post
                        I’ll try to be detailed as possible without writing a novel! The question is at the bottom.

                        Grade gelding (Latigo), 12-14 yr old purchased him in June ‘19

                        Latigo appeared sound when we test rode him, of course we fell in love and bought him. He was delivered on June 14, 2019. He arrived with a number of conditions. Shipping fever, skin infection, so many fly bites on his front legs and a swollen RR cannon bone with clear hoof print on it. He was doctored and on stall/paddock rest for about 2 weeks.

                        In the mean time, we had his shoes replaced (they were WAY past the date). After 2 weeks we decided he was all
                        better and started riding him. He was RF lame😢. Farrier came back and treated like a close nail or maybe a brewing abscess. No improvements after 7 days. He came back and took another look and sent me to the vet for X-Rays.

                        RF: He was loosely diagnosed with Navicular with NO rotation. I say loosely because there is a spot, that could be creating a navicular artifact (I think I said that correctly). LF: clear

                        Sent the rads to the farrier and fast forward 6 weeks, from then1st shoeing, and farrier put a plastic wedge with frog support and a rubberball like material under the pad.

                        I feel like he’s more lame now than he was with just regualr
                        shoes on 😢 Is there a period of adjustment when adding things, such as wedges? Is this added lameness just him adjusting to the new angle. I’ve just read some horrible things about wedges and how it can actually
                        crush bones. If he needs them off I want them off NOW! I don’t want to create more problems 😢

                        I'm not going to comment on shoes but I will say that in order to have a proper foot function, shod or barefoot, the foot must be trimmed and balanced correctly to give the best possible outcome and comfort. Those toes are way long and what that does is prevent the foot from breaking over at the proper place. If the foot doesn't break over correctly its going to break over incorrectly which is going to cause problems elsewhere. Bring the toes and heels back to where they should be and then put shoes on. My guess then would be that you would see a difference in the horse's comfort level.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by specifiedcupcake View Post
                          Isoxsuprine is not exactly a hoof supplement. It's a vasodilator used for laminitis and navicular to improve the circulation to the foot.

                          When you did the PPE did you drug test him? Just wondering if maybe he was not quite sound the first time you tried him.

                          Can you post pictures of the outside of the feet? Like good ground level ones on a hard surface so you can see the angles from at least the front and the sides. The bottom wouldn't hurt either x
                          Yes he is on Isoxsuprine and a hoof supplement.

                          I did no do a PPE 🤦*♀️ I blindly trusted a seller with great reviews and people I know have purchased from him.

                          These photos are from tonight.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by EmilyM View Post
                            Frog pads (i assume that's what you mean by frog support) usually make horses with navicular disease more uncomfortable. they differ from wedges in that the bulk of the pressure goes to the frog. this has many benefits for other hoof issues, but i would stay away from that with navicular. Wedges, however, should help.

                            apologies if i misunderstood and he does not have frog pads.
                            I think you are correct. I think I’m just going to have him come back and pull them off. For one...it rained today and he was slipping and sliding all over! I thought he was going down one time. After that scare he just stayed in his stall. He’s going to damage something else before we fix this problem. I will say....they are not even in my feet and I’m not sold on them!

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Postandrails View Post
                              Did your vet block the RF heel to determine that's where the pain was coming from, or just take the xray? Can you post hoof pics?

                              He did not block. Flex tested and X-rayed the joint that failed.
                              These are from tonight, 3 days post trim.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
                                Did you do a PPE before you bought him? Is it possible he was on painkillers for your. trial ride?

                                I'm a little confused about the diagnosis because typically rotation is connected to founder not navicular syndrome. Hoof angles or bad trims can make navicular pain worse but the source of pain is changes in the navicular bone ot area.
                                I was silly and forgot how unethical the horse worlds is so no I did not do a PPE 😔 Intrusted these people because they have great reviews and I know people who have bought from them. EXPENSIVE lesson learned!

                                i dont know why the vet mentioned “no rotation” it was just something he said and I communicated it to be thorough.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by MzCarol View Post

                                  I'm not going to comment on shoes but I will say that in order to have a proper foot function, shod or barefoot, the foot must be trimmed and balanced correctly to give the best possible outcome and comfort. Those toes are way long and what that does is prevent the foot from breaking over at the proper place. If the foot doesn't break over correctly its going to break over incorrectly which is going to cause problems elsewhere. Bring the toes and heels back to where they should be and then put shoes on. My guess then would be that you would see a difference in the horse's comfort level.
                                  the X-Rays were probably 3 weeks post trim (if that makes a difference). The attached pics are 3 days post trim (taken tonight).

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I have a 15 yr old with navicular in his LF. Wedges made my horse unbearably lame. We tried frog pads, full pads, pour in pads but the horse was very lame with any kind of pad. Tried regular shoes with pads, Natural Balance shoes. Tried barefoot with several trimmers but could never get him quite sound enough to ride. What worked were bar shoes and daily Previcox. Make sure you make 1 change at a time otherwise you won't know what worked.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Front on photos don't tell us much about the hoof angles. We need side on ground level shots plus the sole.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I’m so confused. Is the issue in P2 or the navicular? Why no skyline image? No block?

                                        It may well be the horse is not tolerating this pad setup.

                                        isoxsuprine is not a supplement. It is a medication.

                                        Comment

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