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Ugg .. my horse has laminitis!

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  • Original Poster

    #61
    Originally posted by Scribbler View Post
    That is definitely a well established case of founder, visible even without the xrays.

    I'm curious, did his feet look more or less like this when you acquired him? This is a lot more than "a few rings" on his hooves, the capsule has visibly migrated forward on the hoof and the hoof has that crumpled or collapsed thing going on.

    Horses can have a few "incident rings" on their hooves that don't affect the structure, especially if they have been living through fluctuations in grass on a pasture. But this horse has clear signs of founder, which is much more than that.

    His feet were suspect. I'll post pictures. Without background, my farrier was unsure if he had over grown hooves that lead to how his feet looked or if he had foundered.

    I went back to look at OP's earlier threads and blog to see what I could of the horse's feet when she acquired him a bit over a year ago, I think. There are no clear photos of the feet, but they do look a little foundered even back then at a distance. OP mentions early on that the horse appears to have foundered in the past, but didn't Xray him because that won't change how they manage his feet.

    Given that, I'm curious as to what kind of management and re-shaping of angles has been attempted in the past year? OP says last year that the hoof appears to be growing in straight, but looking at it now, it seems like the top inch is straight, but the hoof continues to flare out lower down. If anything, it looks like the feet are in worse shape now than a year ago? My reading of the situation is that the horse arrived with established founder, a bad coffin bone angle, and whatever farrier work has happened over the past year has not helped reverse this, so the coffin bone is slipping more and more.

    The feet were growing in better. They were messed up and had some rings. They had been looking better, then this spring went to hell in a hand bag.

    I myself would consider these feet to be emergency time in terms of getting a really good therapeutic farrier or trimmer onboard. If the coffin bone has continued to fall over the last year, even without a hot acute laminitis episode, the horse will eventually have the coffin bone rotate through the sole and need to be euthanized. In other words, getting this problem reversed is a life or death question for this horse, not just a quality of life question. It's not like an old soft tissue injury or arthritis where the horse can move stiffly around in the sunshine but live a long time. It needs active and intelligent intervention, and even so it may not work.
    I am really confused as to what happened. He was very lame in the right front, which sounds like is not normal in a case of laminitis, he would have been equally lame in both front feet. So maybe it was case of an abscess . . . how that led to his coffin bones rotating more is a mystery to me.

    https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

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    • Original Poster

      #62
      https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #63
        This is why it is so important to post photos. OP, in that first photo on previous page, those feet clearly show rotation without even looking at x-rays. The shape of the hoof capsule tells you. It also shows that there have been problems for a long time. This may have originally been caused either by diet/metabolism or poor trimming.

        The new growth that looks healthier to you (and your vet and farrier) is coming in at too high an angle because the heels have not been kept low enough. This has probably caused mechanical founder and the rotation. The new growth needed to be growing down at approx. a 45 degree angle, give or take. With a compromised hoof like your horse had, it is critical to get the heel height correct to prevent rotation from happening. A tall heel and overgrown bars will lift the coffin bone at the back and push the weight onto the tip. When the hoof is compromised with long toes and poor white line connection (like your horse had), the laminae connection is not strong enough and it gives way, allowing the tip of the bone to drop even further.

        If diet has played a part it any of this, it is possibly because a horse with healthy feet can withstand a lot more without tipping it into laminitis/founder. Diet is even more critical with compromised feet.

        Apart from the farrier not seeing this, I'm just as concerned that your vet thought the left hoof looked worse - so perhaps they couldn't see what was happening either.

        As mentioned by others, you need a new farrier (and probably vet if they can look at those feet and not see what needs to be done). Those heels need to get trimmed down immediately, or you risk ending up with the coffin bone penetrating the sole.
        Last edited by Postandrails; Aug. 12, 2019, 03:09 AM.

        Comment


        • #64
          Out of curiosity, what did your previous farrier want to do that was different to your vet's advice?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

            I am really confused as to what happened. He was very lame in the right front, which sounds like is not normal in a case of laminitis, he would have been equally lame in both front feet. So maybe it was case of an abscess . . . how that led to his coffin bones rotating more is a mystery to me.
            The horse clearly had an established founder condition when you acquired him. You and your care team did nothing effective to address this. So the founder is getting worse. No mystery there. That's what happens. It gets worse until either you find a therapeutic farrier/ trimmer who knows their stuff, or you have to euthanize the horse.

            As far as the top inch of hoof looking tight, thats typical. It will start to flare below that. You aren't growing in tight hoof that will stay tight down the hoof. You can't with these hoof angles.

            You need to go find Pete Ramry's books and website.



            ​​​​​

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

              I am really confused as to what happened. He was very lame in the right front, which sounds like is not normal in a case of laminitis, he would have been equally lame in both front feet. So maybe it was case of an abscess . . . how that led to his coffin bones rotating more is a mystery to me.
              The lameness in the RF is most likely due to the rotation that happened as a result of the laminitis episodes. Just look at how the bone is positioned.

              I would get a 2nd farrier and vet opinion ASAP. This cannot correct itself.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #67
                Originally posted by Postandrails View Post
                Out of curiosity, what did your previous farrier want to do that was different to your vet's advice?
                I have only had one farrier and he did nothing different than what the vet advice. In fact when the vet was out he said that my farrier was doing a really good job trimming him.
                https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

                  I have only had one farrier and he did nothing different than what the vet advice. In fact when the vet was out he said that my farrier was doing a really good job trimming him.
                  I can't address this, are those pictures of his feet new or old?

                  We had a pony that had a laminitic episode. Thankfully it was his first and only one. I do not have the pics or xrays on hand but could post them later.

                  This is what we did:

                  1. Vet and farrier looked at xrays and discussed shoe and trim plan
                  - he had minimal rotation and we did not have baseline xrays
                  - he was lame for a very very short period
                  - blood work done to check for cushings/etc
                  - vet checked in on a regular basis after
                  2. Pony was put in round full circle shoes with a pour pad (that didn't last long- just to get him through the first few days)
                  3. Pony was bedded deep
                  4. Pony was given bute and something else I can't recall at the moment.
                  5. Pony never, not ever goes out near a blade of grass without a muzzle
                  6. Pony never, not ever will be out on true pasture again. My one area in which is goes out (now) is not pasture, it is basically a dry lot that has scribbles of grass pop up. Too bad- he's still muzzled.
                  7. Episode was last October. Pony was stall bound all winter. When he was comfortable I let him wander in the aisle of the barn- but barely.
                  8. Vet re xrayed- no additional rotation
                  9. Pony just started a very limited modified turnout (with his Hannibal Lecter mask)
                  10. Regular and I mean regular farrier check in and work
                  - if he pulls a shoe (and he does because = pony) farrier will be out within the day . The one time he couldn't get there pony was bedded extremely deep again and I attempted a boot with padding (which pony immediately pulled off because = pony)
                  - every visit farrier is checking the angles
                  11. Pony just started being walked under saddle.


                  So- we took an abundance of caution with him. There will be no real work for him until he is about a year post episode.

                  As per the farrier and vet- with his foot growth- the foot will have grown down almost completely out by then.

                  I am lucky, as mine are kept at home so his care is basically tailored and adhered to by me.

                  I know we took is very very slow for a pony who was never quite totally lame during the episode and was sound almost immediately post treatment. He is a very fancy green medium so we are doing everything in our power to allow him to heal so he can remain sound hopefully for the rest of his life. But we'd treat almost any of ours the same.
                  Come to the dark side, we have cookies

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

                    I have only had one farrier and he did nothing different than what the vet advice. In fact when the vet was out he said that my farrier was doing a really good job trimming him.
                    Then you need a new vet and a new farrier .

                    Because the horse appears to have founder when you acquired him, and the founder has gotten worse over the past year. So whatever you've been doing isn't working.

                    Btw what was the treatment plan for the founder that was implemented when you got the horse last year? I understand you did not get x-rays then?

                    And do you know if the horse had a hot laminitic episode this year, did you actually catch one and if so what was the emergency be treatment for that?

                    Just taking all the information here my deduction is that the founder has been progressively getting worse due to lack of effective tteatreat.

                    And while soft bedding is important for foundered horses, lurching around in mud is not good.

                    You also note that you weren't able to see the horse regularly over the winter and dpring and that the barn owner is an idiot.

                    Honestly you have a horse in a health crisis and you really need to step up your game, self educate, and become an advocate for your horse.

                    I would move him out of Muddy Acres to a place with a knowledgeable barn owner who understands the issue. I would fire existing care team and find the best lameness vet in your region, and the best therapeutic trimmer. I would go online and read everything by Pete Ramey who is probably the current expert on rehabbing founder.

                    OP you took on a horse that was sent to the kill prn because he had chronic health issues. His feet have got worse under your care.

                    I'm not exaggerating when I say your choice is to either step up and take responsibility for this horses recovery or end up euthanizing within a year.

                    You can't fix founder passively relying on a vet and farrier. You need to be the active adbocaad involved in the horses care and monitoring it's effectuvess.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

                      His feet were suspect. I'll post pictures. Without background, my farrier was unsure if he had over grown hooves that lead to how his feet looked or if he had foundered.
                      I lost track of this thread after the original post was edited and the situation was revised to sound like a non-emergency.

                      But those feet! Did a farrier really look at the feet pictured in post 62 and think they might be simply overgrown, but otherwise healthy? A farrier who could think that is a farrier I'd fire on the spot, and certainly not one I'd trust with addressing laminitis-related hoof pathology.

                      OP, your horse needs better quality help to have a shot at recovering from this. I hope for horse's sake that you are willing to get second opinions from a farrier and vet with more experience specifically with laminitis/founder.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Oh

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Oh I see that those photos in post #62 are dated March 2018. The horse clearly had long standing and severe founder when you acquired him. The horse was already in medical distress. And your vet didn't insist on x-rays and your farrier thought it was just a bad trim? And your barn manager didn't start shrieking in horror when as they saw these feet?

                          OP it seems evident your care team is incompetent for whatever reason. You need a new care team immediately. Horse is just going to go downhill year by year.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            Just thought I would give a little update on my guy.

                            I have a new barefoot trimmer. She is doing a nice job with him. She has rehab a lot of feet and I am much more confident in her.

                            I have made changes to his diet that are having a positive affect on his condition. I am using http://www.hoofrehab.com/Diet.html?f...mv2F4UM2ZyAOHM He is doing so well on this.

                            I also am moving him to a place where he will be out of mud. He will be stalled more, which sucks, but he will be out of the mud.

                            We have been making some big changes and so far things are looking up.
                            https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Hopeless - that is such good news !!! So happy for you and your guy.

                              I've been through this before - twice.
                              The first time I followed the usual protocol with shoes / whatever the vet/farrier said was best to do.
                              That horse got worse and I had to have him PTS.

                              My next horse ultimately - also developed metabolic issues - but by then I was better informed.
                              He was trimmed the whole time I had him in the "barefoot trim".
                              I also was careful with his diet.
                              He had a bout of laminitis at age 31.

                              Three days of Bute - and he was fine - was fine for days after - it seemed like all good - continue on.
                              I think he did so well hoof-wise because his hooves were tight and connected.
                              That was scary but within days he was back to normal.
                              Unfortunately the three days of Bute was what caused me to lose him.
                              He had an enterolith and the Bute irritated his stomach lining.
                              He bled and I had to make the awful decision to have him PTS.

                              There is a mare at my barn that recently foundered.
                              It breaks my heart to see her in such pain.
                              Various types of shoes have been tried on her - none making her better.
                              I so badly want to see those shoes removed and her given a proper trim.
                              Her heels are high and contracted.
                              I've talked to the owner - have given her suggestions - offered my help.
                              She's such a sweet mare.

                              Laminitis/founder is so horrible.
                              Thank goodness for people like Pete Ramey who led the way to a different way to help these horses.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Hopeless View Post
                                Just thought I would give a little update on my guy.

                                I have a new barefoot trimmer. She is doing a nice job with him. She has rehab a lot of feet and I am much more confident in her.

                                I have made changes to his diet that are having a positive affect on his condition. I am using http://www.hoofrehab.com/Diet.html?f...mv2F4UM2ZyAOHM He is doing so well on this.

                                I also am moving him to a place where he will be out of mud. He will be stalled more, which sucks, but he will be out of the mud.

                                We have been making some big changes and so far things are looking up.
                                That's a good start. The trimmer will make or break the success - what did she say about the feet? I would suggest getting some follow up xrays to help guide her.

                                As for diet; the link is a lot of stuff. Not sure what exactly you are doing. Diet will definitely help though; can you get your hay tested? (And is it consistent enough that you know what the horse will be getting?)

                                Stalling isn't bad so long as the horse has regular turnout - what will that look like?

                                Glad to hear you're making some positive changes. Keep giving us updates!

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by S1969 View Post

                                  That's a good start. The trimmer will make or break the success - what did she say about the feet? I would suggest getting some follow up xrays to help guide her.

                                  As for diet; the link is a lot of stuff. Not sure what exactly you are doing. Diet will definitely help though; can you get your hay tested? (And is it consistent enough that you know what the horse will be getting?)

                                  Stalling isn't bad so long as the horse has regular turnout - what will that look like?

                                  Glad to hear you're making some positive changes. Keep giving us updates!
                                  The trimmer is impressed with the changes we have made and noticed some positives in the past few weeks. She disagrees with the vet about whether there was sinking or not. I will get some new x rays in a few more months. I think I am going to change vets.

                                  As for diet, he is following the supplements listed at the bottom. He gets California Trace, with salt, magnesium, flax, and a vit e supplement added. He is doing so well on that, that i have had to decrease his feed. I added that link just because it is where i started and it has made a world of difference in his over all health so far.

                                  His stall is great. Limestone with mats and lots of shaving. The turn out is beautiful. Limestone, larger than he has now and a few friends to play with. He is a social butterfly so i have no doubt that he will be friends with his fellow mustang friends. Until me, my pony makes friends easily. LOL His trimmer agreed that the new place will be a better fit for him, even though he will be stalled for part of the day.

                                  Even though he is not showing pain, he is going to be wearing boots for most of the winter. I lost one this weekend because of the mud in his paddock.

                                  Unlike some have implied, I really do try to give my horse the best care possible.
                                  https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

                                    The trimmer is impressed with the changes we have made and noticed some positives in the past few weeks. She disagrees with the vet about whether there was sinking or not. I will get some new x rays in a few more months. I think I am going to change vets.

                                    As for diet, he is following the supplements listed at the bottom. He gets California Trace, with salt, magnesium, flax, and a vit e supplement added. He is doing so well on that, that i have had to decrease his feed. I added that link just because it is where i started and it has made a world of difference in his over all health so far.

                                    His stall is great. Limestone with mats and lots of shaving. The turn out is beautiful. Limestone, larger than he has now and a few friends to play with. He is a social butterfly so i have no doubt that he will be friends with his fellow mustang friends. Until me, my pony makes friends easily. LOL His trimmer agreed that the new place will be a better fit for him, even though he will be stalled for part of the day.

                                    Even though he is not showing pain, he is going to be wearing boots for most of the winter. I lost one this weekend because of the mud in his paddock.

                                    Unlike some have implied, I really do try to give my horse the best care possible.
                                    Ehh….don't be defensive. You put pictures of some seriously flawed feet on the internet. The important part is getting help for them, which many people don't do - they post, get offended at the comments, and then disappear. Stick around and you'll gain a lot of respect.

                                    I'm not sure why a mineral supplement would mean you should decrease feed, unless you are saying only that you can feed less to meet a balanced diet. Diet should definitely help his overall condition but don't be fooled into thinking you will see the results in his feet for a long time. It takes nearly a year for a hoof to grow out fully and have new (better) hoof replace what was there before.

                                    The trimming will be what makes the difference. I can't remember - did your vet think there was no sinking? And this trimmer thinks there had been?

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #78
                                      Originally posted by S1969 View Post

                                      Ehh….don't be defensive. You put pictures of some seriously flawed feet on the internet. The important part is getting help for them, which many people don't do - they post, get offended at the comments, and then disappear. Stick around and you'll gain a lot of respect.

                                      I'm not sure why a mineral supplement would mean you should decrease feed, unless you are saying only that you can feed less to meet a balanced diet. Diet should definitely help his overall condition but don't be fooled into thinking you will see the results in his feet for a long time. It takes nearly a year for a hoof to grow out fully and have new (better) hoof replace what was there before.

                                      The trimming will be what makes the difference. I can't remember - did your vet think there was no sinking? And this trimmer thinks there had been?
                                      I just meant that since I started the supplements he has gain weight ... and gotten a crest ( sigh ). But you right correlation is not causation. I think the BO got a new shipment of hay. I had forgotten that. That he gained weight because hay makes more sense.

                                      I know it will takes awhile to grow out the hoof. I think my trimmer just meant that his over all condition looked better. His frogs were looking better and he was moving well. He also was standing better.

                                      Yes, The vet thought that there was no sinking and showed me on the x ray why. The trimmer disagreed, because of the condition of the frogs. We got talking about other issues with him and I forgot to ask follow up questions.

                                      Of course, it rained really hard the other day here and both his hoof boots were sucked off. I found one, but the other is gone. I hate mud. Let me tell you how much i hate mud.


                                      https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

                                        I just meant that since I started the supplements he has gain weight ... and gotten a crest ( sigh ). But you right correlation is not causation. I think the BO got a new shipment of hay. I had forgotten that. That he gained weight because hay makes more sense.

                                        I know it will takes awhile to grow out the hoof. I think my trimmer just meant that his over all condition looked better. His frogs were looking better and he was moving well. He also was standing better.

                                        Yes, The vet thought that there was no sinking and showed me on the x ray why. The trimmer disagreed, because of the condition of the frogs. We got talking about other issues with him and I forgot to ask follow up questions.

                                        Of course, it rained really hard the other day here and both his hoof boots were sucked off. I found one, but the other is gone. I hate mud. Let me tell you how much i hate mud.

                                        I might retest him for Cushings and/or Insulin Resistance. A normal horse would not develop a crest that quickly. But at least feeding as if he were metabolic will help. Sounds like things are looking up for him.

                                        I hate mud as well. I have heavy clay that you can literally make into pottery (I've done it). You could lose a whole horse in there. Luckily I have a stone dust paddock around my barn so they can get out of it if they want.

                                        Comment

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