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Ugg .. my horse has laminitis!

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  • #21
    Originally posted by trubandloki View Post

    Are you trying to say that for a horse to be sound and comfortable every again after a laminitic episode they have to have shoes on?
    Sometimes that can be the case. See my post #10

    In today's world of horse shoes, there have been developed many types of therapeutic shoes for founder, navicular, etc. but it takes a highly skilled/knowledgeable farrier AND a highly skilled knowledgeable vet create the correct combination of shoes/pads (or no pads) for each individual horse.

    "Good and gone" ( as the country song goes) are the days of a vet casually waving their hand while telling the horse owner to "throw a pair of heart bars and leather pads on a horse with hoof issues. That may still work in some instances but that sort of talk does not fly with the lameness vet who worked on my foundered horse

    Comment


    • #22
      OP you need to go to the Pete Ramey hoof rehab site. He's the top barefoot trimmer and an expert on rehabbing foundered horses. Even if you decide to go with shoes, he has the best most thoughtful information on hoof balance I have seen

      Also there is an ECIR support group that has lots of info on diet.

      Definitely founder rehab and treatment of metabolic disorders are a developing field. Horses live longer, people want to prolong the useful life of their horses, horses are more valuable either emotionally or money wise.

      At the same time people are killing their pet horses by overfeeding. We have now had 2 obese stock horse mares at our barn get laminitic this year.

      So this is a growth area in knowledge and real old school vets and farriers may not know it all.

      Comment


      • #23


        Remember too that laminitis refers to the active hot acute inflammation and founder refers to chronic structural changes inside the foot that can be caused by that inflammation weaking the internal.connections.

        You can have one without the other.

        OP did your horse have a laminitic episode on your watch and if so how did you treat it?

        If you did not notice one, did you miss it or are you seeing old chronic founder from before you acquired the horse?

        Comment


        • #24
          OP you need a different farrier if it took this long, also anytime you suspect laminitis you get the vet out ASAP. Changes to the hoof should not be done without xrays. I get you like “natural” horse keeping but get him comfortable with shoes and then explore alternatives. It’s now summer.

          If the vet refuses to test get another vet. You are your horse’s advocate. I don’t understand why you’re asking these questions now when it all happens in the spring.

          Comment


          • #25
            -----

            Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

            I don't either. I really still think that he is having metabolic issues. He was not on grass when he had the laminitic episode, he was on dry lot, but I think that the barn used their higher starch food to replace his low starch food when he ran out. Now I double check every time I am out there that he has his l/s feed.

            unless the BO buys hay to last at least 3-4 months, you could also have the hay tested. I have heard of more than one horse on a dry lot, with not a weed or blade of grass to be found, still founder because the hay it was receiving had a horribly,high NSC value. If it is sensible to test the hay, the Go-To is EquiAnalytical in New York.

            You out have to be careful using your Co-op, as they generally only test hay for cattle -- those tests are much different than what is needed for a horse



            Of course I am going to do what is best for my boy. I just don't want to jump to shoes because "it is what is always done." Ya know what I mean? There are are so many more options out there now. And I will definitely check out the pour in pads.

            VetTec also makes pour-in pads for barefoot horses. They don't stay in as long as with a shod horse, from what I have read; I have never tried the barefoot pour-ins so I can't comment to them




            THe supplement he was on had chasteberry in it, which studies has shown to help PPID/ IR horses. Although but I will check out those other supplements.

            I have read of some successes with chaste berry. I had tried it on my other horse with mild metabolic issues (he never had laminitis) and it seemed to work ok but I would have killed my current IR horse, had I tried chaste berry on him because it would not have worked

            Pure biotin will help hoof health.
            Pure MSM will help with any inflammation.
            Pure Vitamin E can help with immune system. Both my IR horse and my allergy-prone horse are on an added 3,000 IU daily.


            I am not in love with a Purina product, I did a lot of research to find a feed that the NSC under 10%. Welsolve was the only one I could find that was carried in my area. If you have another feed to suggest, I can look to see if I can find it.

            *****
            You have the dilemma of having a hard keeper so adding calories while keeping the NSC value low is difficult. Both my horses are easy keepers, so the non-IR guy eats the same base as the IR guy which is a condensed vit/min supplement that does NOT use soy as the protein source and also does not have added iron. I use one measuring cup of straight Timothy pellets as the carrier for their supplements, lollol. Nothing your fella could survive on, lol

            Along with more calories, less NSC, the formula should be fixed as anything with the word "by-products" is subject to anything being added. Don't discount any regional or district feeds as they can sometimes turn out to be a hidden jewel amongst horse feeds and ration balancers


            !
            -----

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Haylter View Post
              In this case shoes = life, literally. and that's all I have to say about that.

              ------------------------------

              trubandloki ummmm read for comprehension "IN THIS CASE" OP writing that Xrays show sinking means this horse needs external support to survive with any quality of life.
              External support DOES NOT necessarily mean shoes. Those are not the same thing. There are plenty of other (better) options for supporting a laminitic horse. Equicast comes to mind.....

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by Haylter View Post
                trubandloki ummmm read for comprehension "IN THIS CASE" OP writing that Xrays show sinking means this horse needs external support to survive with any quality of life.
                The OP also says this episode happened in the spring, not now, and the horse is sound at the trot right now.

                There are lots of ways to support a horse during a current episode, shoes are great as are many other options.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by walkinthewalk View Post

                  Sometimes that can be the case. See my post #10

                  In today's world of horse shoes, there have been developed many types of therapeutic shoes for founder, navicular, etc. but it takes a highly skilled/knowledgeable farrier AND a highly skilled knowledgeable vet create the correct combination of shoes/pads (or no pads) for each individual horse.

                  "Good and gone" ( as the country song goes) are the days of a vet casually waving their hand while telling the horse owner to "throw a pair of heart bars and leather pads on a horse with hoof issues. That may still work in some instances but that sort of talk does not fly with the lameness vet who worked on my foundered horse
                  My question of Haylter was not if shoes can be amazing for a laminitic horse it was are they trying to say that shoes are the only way a horse who has had a laminitic episode can ever be sound and happy again.

                  This is what Haylter posted that I was responding to:
                  Originally posted by Haylter
                  In this case shoes = life, literally. and that's all I have to say about that.
                  Which we all know is not true. Lots of horses come out the other side of an episode sound being barefoot. We (general horse owners) have to do what is best for the animal in front of us. Blanket statements like 'only this works' like Haylter said are not true.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by Haylter View Post
                    trubandloki ummmm read for comprehension "IN THIS CASE" OP writing that Xrays show sinking means this horse needs external support to survive with any quality of life.
                    Actually I said that there was NO sinking.
                    https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

                      Actually I said that there was NO sinking.
                      my typo I meant to type rotation in my post not sinking. I still say shoes = life and see no reason at all NOT to shoe him

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Haylter View Post

                        my typo I meant to type rotation in my post not sinking. I still say shoes = life and see no reason at all NOT to shoe him
                        Unless OPs farrier is not competent enough to do corrective, therapeutic shoeing (the average farrier won't be). If OP is fortunate enough to have a brilliant and highly skilled farrier, which I kind of doubt based the situation so far, then shoes could do a lot more damage to the horse than just letting him rest barefoot in a stall. Even worse would be a bad attempt at corrective shoeing, done by someone who lacks the necessary skills and experience.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Do you have access to a referral clinic with a vet and farrier team? It sounds like your old school vet is taking a conservative approach to figuring out the cause of this episode, and it sounds like you'd be willing to investigate metabolic issues more closely. That sounds like a great opportunity to pack him up and take him to the vet school or referral clinic and get the bloodwork done and have an indepth conversation with a vet who loves these sorts of puzzles. If you make the appointment on the right day, you may even get the referral farrier to weigh in with advice for your farrier going forward.

                          If I were you, I'd try to get that appointment ASAP. The closer it gets to fall, the less reliable the test results will be. They may still want to treat him (start pergolide) even if the tests don't show that he absolutely has PPID, so consider that. You'll need to plan ahead for repeating the bloodwork a few times to see if the dosage is correct.

                          An example of the above: friend's gelding didn't show any clinical signs of PPID but had a tendon injury that was more severe than it should have been, and that didn't heal well. Vet had a high suspicion that he had Cushing's and started him on a low dose of pergolide; follow up bloodwork showed he needed a much higher dose. On the correct dose, his tendon has healed more in the past 2 months than in the previous 6 months. Tendons are different from laminitis, of course, but the principle is that sometimes PPID doesn't show visible signs at first and may not even show up on bloodwork - until it does and then sometimes the damage is already done.

                          Remember, too, that insulin resistance and PPID don't always occur together even though they result in some of the same problems. The feed change may be a red herring, or not. I'd blame the hay, since it contributes more to his overall diet.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Originally posted by S1969 View Post

                            OK in fairness - your original post is too long.
                            Yes, I have been accused of being long winded on more than one occasion LOL.

                            Originally posted by S1969 View Post
                            I also missed it - but only saw that you suspected he was PPID. When was the testing done and what type of test for PPID? It's difficult to diagnose at the peak of summer if a horse is borderline. Do you have the actual test results?

                            What did the vet think the reason for laminitis was, then?


                            If the horse is on a dry lot (no grass?), isn't metabolic, what did the vet think?

                            Or, is the horse on pasture - you state that you have him on a dry lot but also use the word pasture. Is there grass? If so, how much?
                            Yes, he is on a dry lot. I will say he is pastured boarded, but around here that means on dry lot. He doesn't get access to grass.

                            Originally posted by S1969 View Post
                            You also say that "The vet's suggestion was that he should be stalled with daily turn out and be shod with pads." Is this for recovery, or is this his recommendation in general? Is it possible that the horse is just footsore from terrain conditions and simply needs shoes - and is not actually laminitic?

                            I would not think that a horse (metabolic or not) needs to be stalled for any reason except for recovery. And what does "daily turnout" mean to your vet? (1 hour? 2 hours? all day and stalled overnight?)
                            I guess you really kind of got to he heart of my question. He showed pain with the hoof testers, but pretty much walked sound, and he said he "didn't look bad at the trot" but he didn't think he was sound enough for riding yet. So if he is just walking around fine and recovering, why put shoes on him.

                            He is old school, and I know old treatments say stall rest, but ... again ... he is sound in the pasture. I am not as concerned about this because he is boarded and although I hate that would ever be stalled, but if he has a stall at the time of the episode, maybe it would have been caught earlier. (I hate boarding) And it is all day turn out and only stalled at night.
                            https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

                              Yes, I have been accused of being long winded on more than one occasion LOL.



                              Yes, he is on a dry lot. I will say he is pastured boarded, but around here that means on dry lot. He doesn't get access to grass.



                              I guess you really kind of got to he heart of my question. He showed pain with the hoof testers, but pretty much walked sound, and he said he "didn't look bad at the trot" but he didn't think he was sound enough for riding yet. So if he is just walking around fine and recovering, why put shoes on him.

                              He is old school, and I know old treatments say stall rest, but ... again ... he is sound in the pasture. I am not as concerned about this because he is boarded and although I hate that would ever be stalled, but if he has a stall at the time of the episode, maybe it would have been caught earlier. (I hate boarding) And it is all day turn out and only stalled at night.
                              OK well I agree that while a horse is actively laminitic, stall rest in a deeply bedded stall is a good idea. And I also think that shoes can be a lifesaver for a horse that is actively laminitic and/or needs support after a laminitic episode. I have a pony that had a metabolic meltdown from undiagnosed Cushings the week after I got him. It was severe. My farrier glued shoes on him to give him extra support, I had him in a deeply bedded stall, on anti-inflammatories and cold hosing, etc.

                              But now he is barefoot. Still sort of a metabolic trainwreck, but under control with Prascend. He needs frequent trimming because his hoof grows abnormally fast (which is apparently not uncommon after laminitis/founder - which we think he probably had done many times prior to me getting him.) But he doesn't need shoes. They wouldn't hurt, but not sure they would help.

                              As for the causes of laminitis....

                              It is possible for a horse to get laminitis only from hay, even if they are not on grass at all....so I might think about the type of hay, etc. But those tend to happen more often in horses that are obese and/or metabolically challenged (IR and/or PPID).

                              When he was laminitic - how did you know? Were his feet hot? Was that when he reacted to hoof testers? Had his feet been trimmed recently?

                              Just trying to narrow down the possible causes for foot soreness and better able to know whether it was actually laminitis or something else - short trim, hard ground, thin soles, etc. And if it was laminitis, whether it could be caused just by a change in grain -- how much was he getting?

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Originally posted by Scribbler View Post

                                Remember too that laminitis refers to the active hot acute inflammation and founder refers to chronic structural changes inside the foot that can be caused by that inflammation weaking the internal.connections.

                                You can have one without the other.

                                OP did your horse have a laminitic episode on your watch and if so how did you treat it?

                                If you did not notice one, did you miss it or are you seeing old chronic founder from before you acquired the horse?
                                This is where I am little confused. When does laminitis switch to founder? I have been saying laminitis, but is he now just foundered?

                                So when I got him, he did have rings. We were unsure if he had foundered in the past or if his feet had been neglected. So since I was not riding, and he did not appear unsound for sitting in a pasture the farrier just corrected what he saw. His feet were growing out nicely. Late spring, we had a ton of rain. I went out one day to find my boy very lame in front. Because of the wet conditions, and the fact that he had had an abscess in the past I called the farrier out to evaluate it. He felt that it was a deep abscess and I called the vet. Going off of that I got antibiotics and bute. The bute probably is what helped.

                                He was ridden lightly a few time, and seems just slightly off on the right front. But it wasn't going away. After the farrier came out and confirmed what I thought that he had an episode of laminitis, I called the vet. I kick myself for the choices I made and not just calling the vet out right away, but what is done is done.

                                Anyway, so now that vet did the x rays ... and we see the rotation, is that sort of set? He won't rotate anymore unless he has a flare up? The recovery is just to let fresh laminate grow in? He is just more at risk of a flare up until his hooves have grown out? But it is founder now?
                                https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by S1969 View Post

                                  OK well I agree that while a horse is actively laminitic, stall rest in a deeply bedded stall is a good idea. And I also think that shoes can be a lifesaver for a horse that is actively laminitic and/or needs support after a laminitic episode. I have a pony that had a metabolic meltdown from undiagnosed Cushings the week after I got him. It was severe. My farrier glued shoes on him to give him extra support, I had him in a deeply bedded stall, on anti-inflammatories and cold hosing, etc.

                                  But now he is barefoot. Still sort of a metabolic trainwreck, but under control with Prascend. He needs frequent trimming because his hoof grows abnormally fast (which is apparently not uncommon after laminitis/founder - which we think he probably had done many times prior to me getting him.) But he doesn't need shoes. They wouldn't hurt, but not sure they would help.

                                  As for the causes of laminitis....

                                  It is possible for a horse to get laminitis only from hay, even if they are not on grass at all....so I might think about the type of hay, etc. But those tend to happen more often in horses that are obese and/or metabolically challenged (IR and/or PPID).

                                  When he was laminitic - how did you know? Were his feet hot? Was that when he reacted to hoof testers? Had his feet been trimmed recently?

                                  Just trying to narrow down the possible causes for foot soreness and better able to know whether it was actually laminitis or something else - short trim, hard ground, thin soles, etc. And if it was laminitis, whether it could be caused just by a change in grain -- how much was he getting?
                                  Wait and minute! You made a really great point! Why weren't his feet hot? The farrier checked for a pulse and even said that there wasn't one. Or at least that is what the barn owner told me. But even the farrier said he must have been mistaken and he had an episode. Oh now I am just confused.

                                  At the time, he reacted to the hoof testers, but didn't have hot feet.

                                  The pen at the time was SLOP. I hurt my hip from the suction walking through it. I was sure that he hurt himself from trying to wade through the mud. I insisted that he be changed to a different pen. One that was higher, still sloppy, but not quite at bad.

                                  He had issues with trims and I told the farrier so he was making corrections that were working. I am pretty sure it was not because of a trim. He does get ouchie on rock and gravel.

                                  He gets a two feeding of 2.5 lbs of Welsolve L/S, because he does not keep weight on with just hay, which he has free choice. It was the vets suggestion to put him on senior feed because he was just not getting enough calories otherwise. I switch to a low starch feed because he just seems to have a lot of symptoms of a PPID/ IR horse.
                                  https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37

                                    https://fearlessriderreturns.blogspot.com/

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      In that kind of deep, sucky mud, you can get some odd soft tissue injuries - like torn collateral ligaments in the hoof. I'd get the horse to a quality sports medicine vet for a fresh perspective. There may be more than one thing going on.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Hopeless View Post

                                        This is where I am little confused. When does laminitis switch to founder? I have been saying laminitis, but is he now just foundered?

                                        So when I got him, he did have rings. We were unsure if he had foundered in the past or if his feet had been neglected. So since I was not riding, and he did not appear unsound for sitting in a pasture the farrier just corrected what he saw. His feet were growing out nicely. Late spring, we had a ton of rain. I went out one day to find my boy very lame in front. Because of the wet conditions, and the fact that he had had an abscess in the past I called the farrier out to evaluate it. He felt that it was a deep abscess and I called the vet. Going off of that I got antibiotics and bute. The bute probably is what helped.

                                        He was ridden lightly a few time, and seems just slightly off on the right front. But it wasn't going away. After the farrier came out and confirmed what I thought that he had an episode of laminitis, I called the vet. I kick myself for the choices I made and not just calling the vet out right away, but what is done is done.

                                        Anyway, so now that vet did the x rays ... and we see the rotation, is that sort of set? He won't rotate anymore unless he has a flare up? The recovery is just to let fresh laminate grow in? He is just more at risk of a flare up until his hooves have grown out? But it is founder now?
                                        Laminitis switches to founder at the moment the coffin bone is displaced relative to the hoof capsule.

                                        It is possible for a horse to have a laminitis episode, and if the hoof balance is good and the episode is treated promptly, for instance icing, soft boots, etc., to have no resulting founder. The inflammation just subsides.

                                        It is absolutely possible for a horse to founder from hay. Around here, the typical first cut local grass hay can easily be 25% NSC. The hay looks like coarse "pony hay" and is low protein, low minerals, but it is high sugar and I have seen someone founder a pony on that hay.

                                        A horse that has had a previous laminitis episode that has triggered structural changes to the foot can have those structural changes get worse and worse without a new active laminitis attack, especially if the hoof is in poor balance. Founder will cause the whole hoof capsule to slip forward on the coffen bone, and that will in turn put more pressure on the structures and make things worse. So yes, a horse with a certain degree of founder (sinking or rotation) can absolutely get worse without a new laminitis outbreak.

                                        OP, note also that founder hurts. The coffin bone is closer to the sole and the foot is sore and tender. In worst case scenario the coffin bone will penetrate the sole (that's game over typically). So a horse can have worsening founder and more foot pain over time even without a fresh bout of acute laminitis.

                                        OP, did you get any PPE or rads on this horse when you acquired him? I seem to remember he was a freebie or a rescue or something like that, so perhaps you didn't look closely at his feet? Did he have founder rings on his feet when you first got him?

                                        If you look at the wall of the hoof, it is a good road map to what has happened to the horse over the last year.

                                        Pethaps we need to see hoof photos here. That could help determine if the problems started before or after you got him.

                                        I really do recommend the online sites i mentioned above.They will help solve some of your confusion here.

                                        Also, any owner with a horse showing laminitis or founder has to do a lot of self education fast to get up te speed on the issues. Unless you know a lot, you cannot be a good advocate for your horse. The solution is multi modal, so to speak. It will involve nutrition, hoof balance, hoof protection, medical testing, medical intervention, and rad diagnosis. You will need to be the central person assimilating all this information and getting the various practitioners to pay attention to each other. You can't expect just your vet or just your farrier to guide you through this. No one practitioner has all the answers.

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                                        • #40
                                          Dear OP,

                                          You obviously know your horse better than I do. A barn mate purchased a new horse and her farrier suggested pulling shoes at the wrong time of the year. (very hard ground) Serious laminitis occurred and she fired that farrier and hired a better one. Her horse immediately went into shoes with pads, and now is in front shoes without pads 2 years later. Go with what your vet and farrier work out together, and that's likely shoes. Yea, they're expensive but cheap in the long term care of your horse. BTW, her farrier also trims and doesn't put every horse into shoes. Just the ones who need shoes. Some horses need shoes and pretty much no one has a horse in shoes for the hell of it. No one wants that added bill.
                                          Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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