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2/3/2011 UPDATES...... Re: Lame after shoeing, 4 times in a row.....

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  • 2/3/2011 UPDATES...... Re: Lame after shoeing, 4 times in a row.....

    Update 2/3/2011
    http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p...ofFeb12011.jpg



    Update 11/1/2010

    Horse has been sound for a while now with the use of the equicast, and shoes stay on with only two nails.







    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Update with pics. After taking the pictures, I realized that I have never seen my horses feet look so horrid. Or anyone else's horse's feet for that matter. There is that one spot where an abscess that is growing out is looking horrible, but does this look like white line??

    Vet suggested over the phone (from emailed pictures) that he has white line.

    Farrier finally called back, and said he hasn't seen any signs of white line disease.

    Can you even diagnose WLD by email?

    I just don't know, and my appointment has been moved to tomorrow due to an emergency surgery at the clinic...

    HEre are the pics:

    http://s128.photobucket.com/albums/p...of%20Pictures/



    My first thought when I saw the pictures, was OMFG.

    Got a guy named Dave Richards from Aberdeen coming to look at the horse.... sent him the photos and he called me in like ten seconds

    Anyone know anything about him?
    www.equicast.us is his website...

    Seems like a nice guy!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    So after not really ever having any particular issues with shoeing this particular horse in the 8 years I have owned him, I have a problem now.

    In the last four times he has been shod, he has come up lame each time.

    There are two potential issues in my head:

    1. Some sort of changes (in the one foot?) physically in the horses foot, but again, its only one foot at a time, primarily the left.

    2. Is the farrier not being careful enough.

    I have been using this particular farrier since moving here last year, and have been relatively happy with him. The only thing I am dissatisfied with at the moment is that the last three times, I wanted to be out there to meet him and he kinda swooped in and out before I got there. So that irks me a little bit because we have been having this issue. So therefore, I don't know if he is rushing, cutting too short, etc. Its hard to see the foot when the shoe is already on. Granted, I have never ever been one to stand over a farrier, but this has been going on for the last few shoeings, so this time I wanted to be a part of things just to see if I could notice anything.


    I have a call into the vet. Awaiting response.

    The farrier has been verbally supportive about doing whatever the vet wants to do.

    One other thing that bothers me: Yesterday we agreed to meet at the barn at 530pm. At five, he called me and said he was already there, had done the horse and was leaving. He said he had walked the horse up and down the concrete aisleway and noted no lameness. I said "great!".

    Well I got there at 530, walked my horse out of the stall and could already tell he was lame.

    So - I am starting to wonder about the farrier when originally I just assumed maybe my horse was having some physical changes in his foot (like the start of navicular? Though that didn't really make sense in my head either).

    Any tips? Ideas? Suggestions? He is head bobbing lame today, but with no pronounced heat.

    It doesn't appear to be a hot nail, but the last time the farrier came out to pull the shoe off (he was DEAD lame last time) it provided immediate relief, and I noted that there was a nail hole that appeared to be too far inward in the sole, through the laminar wall.....

    I know this was rambling... will come back to edit when I get done at the barn....

    Any thoughts are appreciated.
    Last edited by naters; Feb. 3, 2011, 02:29 AM. Reason: Dave Richards is da-bomb...
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  • #2
    I'm not a hoof expert by any means, but I know for a fact that the horse is NOT supposed to be lame or in any way uncomfortable after a shoeing. I definitely recommend a different farrier. I hope your boy is feeling better soon.
    She wasn't running away with me, I just couldn't stop her!

    Comment


    • #3
      IS this always one same foot or it is different feet etc? If it is one foot then I would be suspecting some possible arthritic changes and when the farrier reshoes him, it changes the angle slightly (which is inevitable when the hoof grows) and could put stress on the arthritic areas. I would want the vet to do a complete workup if it is the same foot. If not then I would be thinking the farrier is cutting too short or putting the shoe on so that it is "pinching" for lack of a better word If the shoe is a bit small then it puts pressure in areas it should not. Make sure he is shoeing him with a FULL shoe, even with a SLIGHT amount of shoe showing to allow the foot to expand.
      Last edited by shawneeAcres; Aug. 12, 2010, 10:29 PM.
      www.shawneeacres.net

      Comment


      • #4
        What Shawnee said!

        I trim one who is like this. Sound right after, lame a few hours later. He has arthritic changes in his coffin joint. Shorter trim cycle fixed it.
        "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
        ---
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

        Comment


        • #5
          new farrier time--if this is repeatable, and he's avoiding meeting you there, I'd find someone else.
          "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

          ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

          Comment


          • #6
            What Ghazzu said. This would drive me completely insane. I had an appointment, I needed to discuss something important with you. I've taken the trouble to rearrange my day to see you. So, please, be there!

            My farrier has his moments, but he also happily tolerates me being at every single appointment and breathing down his neck asking questions about absolutely everything. (He's probably deeply grateful to the horse that won't cross-tie as at elast he can get on with his job in peace while I hold the horse...)

            Comment


            • #7
              naters;....
              1. Some sort of changes (in the one foot?) physically in the horses foot, but again, its only one foot at a time, primarily the left.
              Horses with changes within the 3 joint below the carpus/knee will be some what Off after being shod.
              If it has been the 4 shoeing it is the perfect time line for changes within/outside the joints.
              Also don't discount a soft tissue problem within or outside the foot.






              2. Is the farrier not being careful enough.

              AS per usual the farrier gets the blame before vet examination has taken place. Farriers make mistakes as well as horse owners and vets. Collect ALL information from your team and go from there........

              Comment


              • #8
                Four times? You need a second farrier opinion.

                G.
                Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raa, Uma Paixo

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                  Four times? You need a second farrier opinion.

                  G.
                  Believe a TEAM approach would be better. Timeline is in the upper right hand corners:





                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    QUOTE:
                    Originally posted by J.D. View Post
                    AS per usual the farrier gets the blame before vet examination has taken place. Farriers make mistakes as well as horse owners and vets. Collect ALL information from your team and go from there.......
                    QUOTE






                    Whoa.....Hold on there.... I'm not laying blame anywhere. There are two logical options - changes in horse's feet, and farrier issues.

                    The changes in only one foot I've never really heard of. I also have had him trimmed 4 times at 4 week intervals by the same farrier to see if a shorter trim cycle would help any coffin angle changes at the time of shoeing. I also have clean xrays on the horse from 6 weeks prior to the first shoeing (he's a QH that is getting older so I wanted to check for any navicular looking changes while the vet was out for xraying another horse). Also - after each shoeing, the horse was almost immediately sound after removing the shoe (after it had just been put on - nothing is more frustrating than that!). In addition, the reason I wanted to BE out there for the last few trims is because the first time this happened, his toes were really really short when I got to the barn, and he did not have the shoes on that the farrier/me had been using. This and the size of the nails do make a difference to my horse as he does have a thin hoof wall.

                    I have not "bashed" the farrier in any way, and have given him 4x4 weeks (16 weeks!) to give me the professional courtesy to honor my request as a client to be there. That alone is cause for me to take my money elsewhere, but he has been so good at discussing the problems that I didn't want to go that route.

                    So yes, the more it goes around in my head, the more I am leaning towards farrier issue, and less towards horse issue. However, I have both an appt for new xrays and a consult with another farrier scheduled. Just hoping my horse feels better soon!
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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      naters;
                      Whoa.....Hold on there.... I'm not laying blame anywhere. There are two logical options - changes in horse's feet, and farrier issues.
                      Nater- 2. Is the farrier not being careful enough.
                      Hmmmm......

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by J.D. View Post
                        Believe a TEAM approach would be better. Timeline is in the upper right hand corners:







                        This is MONTHS apart though, not a few weeks? Waiting for confirmation of my appointment time for xrays, but even the vet said that he didn't think things would change along in the short period of time this has come up...
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                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Are you just getting views of coffin/navicular? What I am suggesting is higher up in the pastern joints. I never laid blame on your farrier and think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions. However, I would ask him to try shoeing him "fuller" and see if that helps. Of course, some pics of his shoeing and hoof angles might help as well. In addition, soft tissue changes won't show up on xray and that could also be playing a part in this
                          www.shawneeacres.net

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by naters View Post
                            This is MONTHS apart though, not a few weeks? Waiting for confirmation of my appointment time for xrays, but even the vet said that he didn't think things would change along in the short period of time this has come up...
                            4 weeks equals 4 months. if one was to look at the proliferation of bony change; well thats just a fews months.

                            Not banging on ya but radiographing the feet and discussing whether a 4 week cycle is right for the particular horse and whether bony changes are the culprit or sloppy farriery......lots of questions to find the answers to but logical thought process with pertinate information can resolve some problems.....

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by J.D. View Post
                              4 weeks equals 4 months. if one was to look at the proliferation of bony change; well thats just a fews months.

                              Not banging on ya but radiographing the feet and discussing whether a 4 week cycle is right for the particular horse and whether bony changes are the culprit or sloppy farriery......lots of questions to find the answers to but logical thought process with pertinate information can resolve some problems.....

                              Right. So that is why yesterday, as I mentioned a few times, before I even posted here, I called and left a message for the vet requesting xrays of the fronts....

                              I have clean xrays from 6 weeks before he was first lame after shoeing. That first lame-shoeing, he was lame immediately, and then greatly relieved having the shoe removed. I just am hesitant to think that there would be that much change in a horses physical structure (without a founder or something dramatic) in 6 weeks.

                              yet, anything can happen I suppose.
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                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by shawneeAcres View Post
                                Are you just getting views of coffin/navicular? What I am suggesting is higher up in the pastern joints. I never laid blame on your farrier and think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions. However, I would ask him to try shoeing him "fuller" and see if that helps. Of course, some pics of his shoeing and hoof angles might help as well. In addition, soft tissue changes won't show up on xray and that could also be playing a part in this

                                No, I don't think you are laying blame on the farrier, I think that JD is a little defensive about me suggesting that the farrier could be an option.

                                I agree with you about not just doing coffin/feet.

                                Interesting you said that about the "fuller", because I took one of his shoes out to the barn again this morning (the shoe is from about 6 months ago) and it is WAY bigger and "fuller" than the current shoe he is wearing... and I have had that conversation with the farrier a couple of months ago... which is one of the reasons I wanted to BE there when he was there, and he knew this....
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                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Is he still off?

                                  This happened to my older horse last week. Same farrier for yrs. Walked off LF lame. Pulled shoe, reshod. Same. Bute and in stall for a day then was fine.
                                  I was wondering if the hammering maybe irritated some arthritis in foot or joints higher up.

                                  I know if someone hammered steel on my foot, my ankle & knees would surely be sore for a bit so maybe the same?

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Yep, still off at the moment. Vet called, recommended to not pull the shoe just yet (I am dying to get that shoe off) until he can look at his schedule to see when he can come out (he wants to see the shoe on the foot, etc).
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by J.D. View Post
                                      Hmmmm......
                                      Well... it is a reasonable question to ask, and should be asked. It should not be asked in a vacuum, and it should not be assumed it is the only option. But a simple reading of naters' original post seemed to indicate she is not limiting her research to one option. Others who posted here might be doing so, but that's hardly cause to leap down naters' throat is it?
                                      Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        naters-No, I don't think you are laying blame on the farrier, I think that JD is a little defensive about me suggesting that the farrier could be an option
                                        no defensive, just want owners to be cautiuos about lameness issues.


                                        Interesting you said that about the "fuller", because I took one of his shoes out to the barn again this morning (the shoe is from about 6 months ago) and it is WAY bigger and "fuller" than the current shoe he is wearing... and I have had that conversation with the farrier a couple of months ago... which is one of the reasons I wanted to BE there when he was there, and he knew this...
                                        some deductive reasoning would tend the viewer of the posted rads to see a more "stumpy or clubby" appearance to the foot, thus a smaller shoe to be applied; just anedoctal but hey.....

                                        Comment

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